A Sacred Subversion Against Science And Reason – Book Review

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By Harmeet Singh

In his book, Being Different: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism, Rajiv Malhotra attempts to “rebut” Western Universalism — the view that all societies should adopt western values — by arguing that the moral truths of west can’t be used for moral assessment of “Indian Civilization” which is based on the divine and sacred principles of “Dharma” beyond West’s moral discernment. Dharma, according to author is too sacred to be translated or defined as such.

The “Dharmic Civilization” of India as such exists beyond the morality of mankind. In his approach, the author provides cosmological sanctity to India in which India becomes a cosmic order of Universe — the one in which cosmos is working towards maintaining India in its natural sacredness beyond the disapproval of rationality, history, science and morality. Malhotra therefore, concludes “Indian civilization” is in an “integral unity” with cosmos and itself while the West in absence of this divine connection exists in “synthetic unity.”

The description of a civilization completely escapes the chapters of the book. Did it not make proper sense to the author to define what a civilization is while comparing two civilizations —  to see if the comparison is valid? The more the author transgresses reason and facts and the more internal contradictions he creates, the more sacred India becomes.

The moral truths that a civilization is an institution of humanity (and not of cosmos) based on moral worth of mankind in equality, freedom and justice are entirely annihilated in the cosmological “Dharmic Civilization”.

Under this cosmo-centric approach, the author’s pandering against the western philosophy is an uncredible attack. In addressing the “stereotypes” by the West against Hindus being morally neutral, nowhere the author credibly shows the reader the moral system of Hinduism and in fact denies connection of “Hindu morality” with reason. The author’s depiction of the West as racist and imperialistic is stereotypical. In doing so, he himself does the same he accuses the West of doing. This is hypocrisy and deceit but this is what it seems to make sense to the author.

Moral Flexibility

Readers can infer that no sooner the mythical assumption of author land him in fundamental conflict with facts that India itself is a creation of Western Imperialism and not of God or Cosmos, the author doesn’t consider it necessary to explain his own internal contradictions.

Since the author calls this elusive approach “Purva Paksha” or reversing the gaze, it turns out to be really reversing of the truth.

“Purva Paksha”, the author describes is an approach to rebut “an opponent” in order to establish one’s own view point. The approach is seriously flawed as author seeks to disprove “an opponent” simply on the assumption that his own view is disprovable.

Through this elusive approach, the author provides Hindu India a divine security against moral disapproval of history. It doesn’t become too far for a reader to conclude that the “opponent” in the case of a “Purva Paksha” is not just the West but morality and reason that needs to be annihilated in order to establish the Dharma.

It is worth mentioning that author quite elaborately mentions that in Hinduism moral compliance to reason is not required. Hinduism therefore, allows moral flexibility for the spiritual growth of a Hindu. In “reversing the gaze”, reversing the
morality of mankind becomes a sacred act.

The author as such restores to bland assertions, contrasting symbolism, anecdotes, internal contradictions, metaphors and mythical contrasts to conceal distortion and depict Western philosophy in these stereotypes. The unpalatable terminologies and sacred word salad used for this psychological manipulation in book leaves away one with a feeling of swallowing onto something which is not present in mouth.

“Inner Sciences”

The author’s subversion against science and reason on claims of attaining the spiritual wisdom is pathological and disturbing.

In describing the “Hindu cosmology”, Mr. Malhotra calls the spiritual system of Hinduism as “inner sciences” and claims that the knowledge gained as such through these “inner-sciences” becomes “embodied-knowledge” which is beyond the rational and objective verification. Interestingly, at the same time also he claims that these “inner sciences” are empirical because they are experienced by the Yogis and Tantrics, however he provides no evidence for their empiricism whatsoever.

The book is ridden with glaring internal contradictions and more the author contradicts science and rationality the more sacredness he achieves. However, having contradictions is not a concern for Mr. Malhotra, because a Hindu according to the book doesn’t need rational, objective or moral explanations in order claim “ultimate truth” and “oneness.”

According to the author, since the whole world is functioning in cosmological sanctimoniousness of “oneness” to a Hindu; there can be be no conflict between Dharma and Science and therefore, Yoga is a Science. Mr. Malhotra’s compulsive attempt to claim the spiritual practices of Hinduism as Science on basis of cosmological sanctimoniousness of Hindus and Hinduism is not just fallacious but chronically pathological.

According to the author, the West due to the absence of these “inner sciences”, “embodied-knowledge” and presence of outwardly pursuit for fulfillment with need of “order” has restored to aggressive projects of Domination.

According to author, since the time of Platonic order of forms, West has inextricably linked truth, beauty and goodness to order not only to define racial and ethnic typologies but also to create a world order. A Hindu on the other hand stays in comfort in disorder, according to the author. Disorder to a Hindu is not subjected to the moral assessment of truth, beauty and goodness.

The author writes:

“Chaos is entrenched in the Vedas, the Puranas and Hinduism in general for a reason: its role is to counterbalance and dilute any absolutist tendencies as well as provide creative dynamism through ambiguity and uncertainty” (Chapter 4).

The question that aptly needs to be asked is if disorder and chaos evoke “creative tendencies” in a Hindu then isn’t it also true that chaos in a Hindu mind evokes the creative comfort? And, the more chaotic and disordered a Hindu is, the more he is counterbalanced?

In undermining reason, the author writes:

“Unlike Western philosophy, which deploys reason without demanding any inner transformation of consciousness through yoga or meditation, Indian philosophical systems are inextricably interwoven with adhyatmika practice.” (Chapter 2)

A reader may be knocked out in listening to sacred word salad like “inner transformation of consciousness” with “adhyatmika practice” that make no scientific sense but from what it seems clear, the inner transformation of consciousness of a Hindu mind happens by overcoming his own moral ability to reason as a practice to reach “ultimate truth”.

With the “embodied-knowledge’, a Hindu can transgress all Laws including the Law of Excluded Middle and is therefore encouraged to have contradictory experience to obtain “ultimate truth”.

Hinduism as such increases the spiritual flexibility of an individual, according to the author, whereas, reason becomes unpalatable to the spirituality a Hindu.

“Cosmic Sanskrit”

The book is further riddled with Aryanized view of Sanskrit. Sanskrit, according to author is a sacred language and not only carries varying meanings beyond Western morality but also represents “cosmic pulse” — something which is missing in western lexicon. Sanskrit, according to author is in-translatable and its translation or even conceptualization of its constructs violates the sacredness of Sanskrit.

The Hindu construct of “Dharma” according to the author therefore, can’t be assessed with any moral and ethical standards. However, are these “divine attributes” beyond the facts about Sanskrit?

The author fails to disclose if the experience present in Sanskrit is verified, let alone validated because of its in-existence as a spoken language in history. It further being a fact that without ever been a spoken language, Sanskrit has remained morally and verbally handicapped to express reason and conceptualization making moral and empirical translability of human experience being universal aspect of humanity completely absent in Sanskrit- which is attributed as divine characteristic of Sanskrit.

This is precisely why Hindu constructs can’t be conceptualized or de-mythologized — and hardly because of divine attributions — as they exist in an pre-conceptualized state of mind without ever becoming a moral or verbal discipline, which as the author would agree is anathema to Hindus but still valid for spirituality of a Hindu.

In order to protect sacred integrity of Sanskrit, the author purposes stopping the “digestion” of Sanskrit through its conceptualization or translation by importing the words of Sanskrit “as such” in the western lexicon for the cultural development of the West.

This is impossible. Apart from Sanskrit being unswallowable and inedible for human “digestion”, this suggestion is fundamentally incompatible.

An amphibian characteristic can’t be joined with a human.

Caste: The Hindu Blood Order

Strikingly, the author who is an upper-caste Hindu nowhere in the book tells readers about the order of society in India which is essential for comparison any two civilizations. The reality of Hindu society governed by Caste has been completely concealed in which roughly 80% of Indians living in perpetual slavery of Hinduism are just riding their “cycles of birth and death” to pay off the debt of Karma.

In providing the Hindu caste the sacredness, the author states that the Hindu Varna system despite the fact having the Blood Determination in it cannot be translated as caste system on basis of Sanskrit’s cosmic sanctimoniousness.

The book thus becomes a burgeoning attempt of modern Hinduism to collude perverse intellectual and amoral legitimacy with its Blood order of society. Whereas, the response of modern revival of Islam against Western Universalism has been primarily towards re-establishment of Islamic institutions that primarily includes Ummah, Caliphate and Sharia in order to increase the community feeling and to restore the Islamic order of society, the response of modern Hinduism has been no different in its kind which is to subjugate everything under its sacred Hindu blood hierarchy.

Hindu Imperialism

With Hinduism as bio-centric religion subversion against science and rationality becomes a sacred Hindu practice for maintaining the “cosmological integrity” and “order” of Hindu India. The repression over non-Hindus and lower-castes in India too becomes a sacred act for maintaining the cosmological integrity of Hindu India. This is what is exactly seems in book in case of author’s presentation of Sikhism. The caste-free Sikhism defining the moral worth of man in equality is subverted with caste-ridden Hinduism to create the “ultimate truth”.

Contrary to Hinduism, the West is based on moral worth of an individual and reason. Therefore, rationality can question the West however; this is not true in case of Hindu India which can’t be questioned by rationality or reason or disapproval of history.

A westerner is free to condemn or break away from the Biblical spirituality or “Western Imperialism” as such without any moral or cosmological impediment. This is not true in case of a Hindu. A Hindu doesn’t has the moral will to deny the imposed spirituality of cosmological fatalism in which he was born into and be free from it. A Hindu is deprived of his own moral worth which is to be determined by the cosmocentric caste system. An Untouchable(Pariah) born in slavery of Hinduism has no free will to break away from enslavement of upper-castes regardless of whether he becomes a Doctor, President or even a “Westerner” — an Untouchable remains an Untouchable in Hinduism. The “ultimate truth” thus being that the moral will of Man MUST be subjugated to maintain the cosmologically integrated blood-hierarchy becoming “oneness”.

With the absence of ideas of justice, human equality, humanity, freedom, rationality and human rights in “cosmic oneness” (let alone words),a genuine civilization with the moral worth of man in fact becomes a threat to the spirituality of Hinduism and therefore must be subverted or to put in author’s words “creatively integrated into Hinduism”.

All humanity including politics, philosophy, sciences, reason including individual moral worth and moral rationality under modern Hinduism, therefore is subjugated to reflect an “integral unity” with its “oneness” nurturing its cosmological blood hierarchy.

In its most cynical and misanthropic form, the moral underdevelopment of the Hindu society ridden with “souls” paying their debt of Karma and others reaping rewards of Karma as the Upper-castes, the resurgent mass violence, social contradictions, blood-ridden inequality and complete degradation of human life become a “cosmological union” providing comfort to a Hindu.

The thought of fairness, equality and justice therefore, evoke a riled disturbance to a Hindu mind- who on the path to gain spiritual consciousness considers them as spiritual impediments. A caste Hindu is not only absolved from reason or morality; he is MUST transgress them to attain spiritual wisdom. A Hindu therefore, receives inherent comfort in creating morally transgressent institutions like Caste that for him define his cosmological essence with divine. A caste society is a necessary connection with cosmos for the sustenance of salvation of a Hindu.

In his quest for spiritual attainment, a Hindu transgressing humanity and its “moral impediments”, therefore achieves moral immunity. Without any moral impediment to reason, a Hindu has the cosmological sanctity to subjugate moral rationality and moral worth of man. This can be verified from the Hindu scriptures itself. Hindu scriptures provide moral immunity to inflict heinous cruelty on others to gain spiritual strength. Thus, even the experience of raping a woman becomes a sacred spiritual experience of gaining strength for a Hindu as mentioned in the Brhadarankyaka Upanishad:

“Surely, a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: “I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendor”. (Brhadarankyaka Upanishad 6.4.9,21)

The more a Hindu has the right to transgress humanity, the more united he seems to be with the cosmos and more sacred he becomes. As also seen in perfect example of Gandhi who forced his own nieces to sleep naked with him to test his own sexual strength became more spiritual and sacred. The promotion of slaughter of Blacks and racism in Africa by Gandhi makes him even more “Mahatma” with more sacred accomplishments transgressing morality.

With the Gandhian ideal of “Ahimsa” being morally immune to rationality, the more Hindu India achieves moral immunity by transgressing morality with mass violence and ongoing massacres against millions, the more sacred India becomes to a Hindu.

This article has been slightly revised and updated by the author.  This article was submitted by the author, and as such the opinions expressed herein are the sole responsibility of the author.

Harmeet Singh is a Scientist and resides in Chicago, IL

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111 thoughts on “A Sacred Subversion Against Science And Reason – Book Review”

  1. “Dharma, according to author is too sacred to be translated or defined as such.” As soon as I read this, I knew that the rest of the review was going to be predicated on this kind of reasoning.And further reading proved me right.

  2. I am intending to read this book simply to better understand the author’s arguments. I am Hindu, but I have spent almost all of my life in the USA. For the longest time, I have seen Hinduism as being in line with the major religions of the world. Indeed, through the writings of many academics, both Western and Indian, I have seen many similarities between my sect of Ramanuja Vaishnavism and Judao-Christian belief.

    However, these ideas are in stark contrast to the mainstream Indian immigrant population, who find justification for apathy, amorality, and lack of spiritual/ethical reflection in their Hindu identity.

    I am hoping that Mr. Malhotra’s book will help me better understand these fallacies.

  3. This review is so harum-scarum that it is very difficult even to know where to start trying to explain what the reviewer did not understand.

    Let us begin this way – I read in the comments to an op-ed in the New York Times, a letter from a lady describing the difficulty of being an Episcopalian among Baptists, facing the constant attempts to “convert” her. I would ask Harmeet Singh to reflect on this, ask why it happens, and whether similar difficulties are typical in the Indian traditions.

    The following is very simplified, almost a cariacature, but perhaps the reviewer will be able to follow. Please understand that I am exaggerating in order to make a point comprehensible; Mr. Malhotra’s infinitely more balanced presentation flew over the reviewer’s head.

    The reviewer will find that doctrinal differences between Christians are not fatal to the participants in this day and age only because the hand of secular government has been stood up between them. Not only are their truth-claims not reconcilable, but without the protection of secular government they would not even be mutually tolerable. It is only after tremendous warfare and bloodshed have they come to the agreement that they must greatly restrict religion in the public sphere.

    One of the reasons for the potentially deadly clash between Christians is that they subscribe to a rather absolutist belief in morality or whatever; differences to them arise from moral choices, and since only one moral choice can be the best, toleration of differences means moral relativism. This is one way of describing difference anxiety. The contrasting attitude is that there are roses and dahlias in the garden and there is no conflict because of their difference.

    At this point, the reviewer is probably spluttering something about religion and choice – roses and dahlias didn’t choose to be different, but in the matter of religion, Baptists and Episcopalians do have choice, etc. This is where the untranslatable Dharma comes in, popularly translated into English as “religion”.

    The rose has its dharma, the dahlia has its dharma and they are different, and it is OK to be different. Substitute in my sentence, “religion” for “dharma” and it becomes incomprehensible as to what I’m saying. It is a perfectly valid sentence, however, in the Indian dharmic traditions.

    The above, in a highly simplified, in a form pureed for the ingestion by a baby, of some of the ideas in Rajiv Malhotra’s book.

  4. Mr. Gupta,

    I would suggest you to read my review again. A human being is based on his own self-worth and not on amoralistic determination of Dharma to be a Brahmin, Sudra or an Untouchable for elusive spiritual union with Cosmos. Without moral worth of mankind in reason and science, anything contrary to reason can be described as “Dharma” for the spiritual growth of a Hindu.

    “Hindu morality” as such is no different from “Christian morality”- both of which are based on determination of the moral worth of a man through their own religiosity. Both Hinduism and Christianity achieve subjugation of mankind by subverting reason, morality, science and objectivity to justify their religiousness.

    A Hindu therefore, calls the occult practices of Hinduism like Yoga and Tantra as “inner sciences” while the Christian fundamentalism calls creationism “Intelligent Design.”
    It thus becomes the “Dharma” of Untouchable to be an Untouchable like a Rose and Dahlia. Both Christianity and Hinduism are based on human-denying principles.

    By distorting this, Mr. Malhotra aims for a false comparison between the Hinduism and Christianity which in essence are essential same in kind.

    Secondly, your understanding of secularism in west is highly fallacious. Secularism disallows establishment of any religion by State and is necessary for the freedom and liberty of an individual and thus is good riddance of religion from governance, something also very much missing in India.

    Regards,

  5. Mr Harmeet Singh,

    It seems we extract different meaning from exactly the same words. Where did the issue of being a Brahmin, Shudra or untouchable come up? Where does the issue of denying reason come up? Mahatma Gandhi is an exemplar of Hindu dharma. Was he human-denying? Rev. Martin Luther King was another religious person. Don’t we brown folks have a home here at least in part because of him?

    As to the rest, any meaningful and powerful idea can be misused. Science and reason are not free from that – the people’s paradises of the communist states were supposedly based on science and reason and abolition of the superstition of religion. Pol Pot of Cambodia killed millions of his countrymen in the name of reason. There are nuclear bombs and other weapons of mass destruction, enabled by science and reason. A million people died in Iraq in the name of freedom – that war was started by a free democratic country. Would you abandon all these ideas because they have been used for evil?.

  6. Mr. Gupta,

    You call Pol Pot killed millions in the name of reason- therefore, could I ask you how in your mind you think reason justifies mass-cruelty against millions?

    Isn’t a Brahmin and an Untouchable creation of the “Dharma”? Is that not denial of humanity to millions? On what reason is this denial justified?

    Denying reason is aim of the book and is vital to consider. Could you tell me how did Yoga and Tantra become “inner sciences”?

    I think you are further misconceived by Gandhi and I suggest you to try to get familiar with his racial activism against Blacks in Africa. The history of Gandhi’s racism against Black people is undeniable.

    I would also try to update my review to include Gandhi’s amorality.

    Regards,

  7. Mr Harmeet,

    Rajiv Malhotra’s book does not contrast Hindu universalism alone with the West, as you seem to imply. It contrasts the common elements across all Indian thought systems – which includes religious streams within Hinduism as also the non-Vedic schools of Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism, with what is commonly regarded as ‘Western’ universalism.

    I see that you have chosen to imply that Hinduism, Islam and Christianity are all equally to be blamed for their supposed goal of ‘subjugation of humanity’ but you reserve praise for Sikhism alone in your article.

    And you seem to have no problem with the fallacious conflation of science and reason as a solely ‘Western’ preserve.

    Maybe Mr Harmeet is enunciating a new ‘Sikh universalism’ when he proclaims that Sikhism alone determines humans by their ‘moral worth’. I am also curious to ascertain Mr Harmeet’s views on whether Sikhism is supposed to be the only Indian religion to have developed science and reason-based thinking or does Sikhism acknowledge science and reason as a ‘Western’ preserve and genuflect before the West for introducing them to reason?

  8. Thanks for trying to divert the attention, Truth Seeker.

    If you read properly, I am using example of Sikhism and its historical rejection of Hinduism and Hindu society- the fact has been annihilated by Malhotra- to point at Malhotra’s illegitimate reasoning and false hypothesis of “Indian spiritual systems” in “integral unity”.

    Unless of course you want to transcend reason, there is nothing close to what you are saying is claimed by me. I never said Sikhism alone to determine moral worth of humans. Any religion claiming the sole determinant of mankind’s moral worth in itself is Imperialistic which is what Malhotra tends to achieve through the “integral unity” of Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism with Hinduism as integral “Dharma”.

    I further never said reason or science is solely “western preserve”. Reason or Science is not an attribute of West or any religion, race etc; Reason is an attribute of humanity. However, according to Malhotra, since a Hindu has the spiritual strength to transgress reason to gain cosmological sanctity, it becomes apparent to understand the sadistic desire of a caste Hindu to subjugate facts, reason and science to legitmize its sacred blood hierarchy.

    Malhotra thus has no problem in subjugating Science under the unscientific occult spirituality of Yoga and Tantra by calling them “inner sciences” having the “embodied-knowledge” that is beyond rational objectivity to conceal his sanctified fraud to which you seemingly have no objection either.

  9. Mr Harmeet,

    I am not sure you’ve understood the key arguments that are central to Rajiv’s book. Rajiv Malhotra’s book basically makes the following simple point:

    That the religions born in India (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) have the following traits in common which distinguish them from the Abrahamic traditions:

    1) As opposed to the Abrahamic faiths, they are not history-centric or exclusivist. They don’t base their truth claims on a particular fact of history or a particular ‘prophet’ who is claimed to have exclusive access to God’s words. The Abrahamic faiths coerce their followers with the dogma that the ONLY way to salvation is to believe in a particular history and a particular prophet. None of the Indian faiths (including Sikhism) make this claim – moksha is about individual striving and not about any accepting one particular prophet as true and all others as false.

    2) The metaphysics of all these religions emphasize an interlinking of various elements (typically the Soul, God and Matter) that is referred to as ‘Integral Unity’ as opposed to Christian metaphysics where the three elements are conceived as totally separate from one another.

    3) These religions tend to be more comfortable in their philosophies with a context-dependant truth and logic which could be construed as ‘chaos’, rather than simplistic binary good/evil categorization.

    4) Finally, words like karma, moksha, dharma, sansara, are common to all four religions and these and many other words carry meanings that are not easily translatable into English.

    This is the essential argument of Rajiv Malhotra’s book. So which one of these arguments do you disagree with ?

  10. Yoga and Vipassana (a Buddhist meditation technique) are called ‘Inner Sciences’ very simply because they expound a set of detailed instructions which if followed correctly are supposed to achieve certain specific mental states.

    Maybe you dispute the assertion that these mental states can be achieved. However you might not be aware that Yoga as a business is actually much bigger in the US than even in India and that one in 10 Americans are into Yoga and this group is fast expanding. These people seem to be agreeing to the claim of Yoga being an ‘inner science’ and you do not. Fair enough – there is no coercion on you to agree with the majority. That is your personal opinion.

  11. Truth Seeker,

    Addressing your point 1; Malhotra in trying to make a false comparison between Biblical historicism and genesis based on original sin completely ignores genesis of mankind in blood hierarchy of caste ordained by Vedas that makes Hinduism also same as Christianity.

    Caste however, is way more exclusivist having all the spiritual benefits for the upper-castes who become the spiritual leaders of Hindus. Why hasn’t Mr. Malhotra ever addressed this?

    Now to address your point 2; To correct you, it is not just God soul and matter in “integral unity”, according to Malhotra but EVERYTHING. And, of course a Hindu has to make everything in “integral unity” in order to justify subjugation of everything. Therefore, there is no reasonable substantiation need for the basis of “integral unity” and that’s why subjugation becomes more sacred into the “oneness” of Hinduism. Once a Hindu can claim this, he doesn’t need any morality to justify this or anything.

    Regarding your point 3; only Hinduism can be attributed to the “flexibility of logic” in order to justify bizarre rationality of “oneness” and chaos. Malhotra, in fact considers it must for spiritual growth in Hinduism. This is not reason but annihilation of reason. Malhotra never provides any reason or evidence with regards to other religions and their morality to wantonly superimpose Hinduism’s amorality of love with chaos over others since any morality is anathema to a Hindu. Please tell us how does anti-caste Sikhism is in “integral-unity” with caste-ridden Hinduism.

    Regarding your point 4; yes, there is a presence of these words in Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism however, so is the presence of Semitic words in Sikhism but that doesn’t mean Sikhism is in “integral unity” with Islam and Christianity?

    You are brilliant to the point that you or Mr. Malhotra have no evidence to present scientific evidence regarding the occult practices of Hinduism but still fraudulently claim the right to call these occult practices science. This is the deliberative deception in the book by Malhotra in denying reason and empirical substantiation in order to deceive and subjugate everything including on basis on Hindu sanctity of “oneness”.

  12. Mr. Harmeet,

    Your obfuscations, leaps of logic and use of dense, confused language border on the bizarre. I will leave you with some final thoughts – it is upto you to determine whether you want to continue tilting against windmills or use the wisdom of Indian philosophy for your own inner benefit:

    1. You mention ‘upper castes’ as the ‘spiritual leaders’ of Hindus. You obviously have no idea that Brahmins are not the same as Christian priests. They are purely meant to act as intermediaries for the performance of rituals – unlike the role of the Christian priest in congregations, the Hindu priest is not meant to act as the ultimate ‘spiritual leader’ in providing advice on the duties and means to attain moksha. That role is reserved for gurus, rishis and yogis – who can be from any caste whatsoever and very often are from the supposed ‘most backward castes’. You can check on Ramdev, Valmiki and countless other current and historical spiritual leaders.

    2. You are right that history-centrism of the Abrahamic religions and discrimination, if any, based on caste are equally loathsome. Those who seek to justify either one certainly need to be denounced. You will not find any spiritual leader in India today justifying discrimination based on caste – and nor obviously is Mr Malhotra. However – you WILL find a significant portion of Abrahamics, including their spiritual leaders – actively justifying the history-centrism of their sects.

    3. The term ‘integral unity’ has to do with understanding the metaphysics of Indian philosophy and does not pertain to the 4 different religions themselves being in ‘integral unity’.

    4. The fathers of quantum mechanics – Heisenberg and Schrodinger, were fundamentally influenced by Indian philosophy in their thought, which they openly acknowledged. You claim to be a ‘scientist’ and are not aware of the host of eminent global scientists who believe in Indian metaphysical thought. If as a scientist – you want not to keep an open mind but denounce these folks as ‘superstitious’ that is up to you.

    5. Finally, Malhotra’s book focuses on the wisdom behind Indian classical philosophy and its relevance for today. This classical philosophy is from Hindu, Buddhist and Jain sources (not Sikh for the simple reason that Sikhism came into existence much later). It is upto you and for Sikh leaders to determine whether you want to accept this unmatched wisdom as part of your heritage and be proud of it or if you want to reject it. The world is slowly coming around to realizing the wisdom of Indian philosophy and are looking for ways to incorporate this in their daily lives. You (and all of Sikhism) are free to reject this and proclaim yourself as not being part of this classical Indian heritage.

  13. Truth Seeker,

    You are again not addressing the points I raised in the review and in my reply. There is no logical or reasonable or empirical substantiation in Mr. Malhotra’s claims or in claims of “Hindu Philosophy”. And now what you are bringing to me is a dubious claim about Heisenberg. Is that the proof you got to make everything in Hinduism Science or Metaphysics?

    Please read the book again, Malhotra uses Hindu determinism of “divine integrity” to imagine and impose divine fatalism on not just over Science, Philosophy, religion,India but whole humanity. However, the facts and Sciences are contrary to his divine claims as Malhotra simply seeks divine sanctity.

    I am glad that you agree caste is loathsome however, getting back to the facts and your claim that Hindu spiritual leaders don’t discriminate on basis of caste- Of course, they don’t discriminate if you go by the doctrine of caste itself.

    I’d also want you address Narendra Modi- the Chief Minister of state of Gujarat – who writes in his book “Samajik Samrasata” that the solution of Untouchability lies in treating Untouchables as mentally retarded in order help in their Dharma to ameliorate their destiny.

    Modi represents the thinking of an upper-caste Hindu,spiritual Gurus and leaders like Gandhi who also claim that manual scavenging is a spiritual experience for the Untouchables. So, Of course you can say caste Hindus are not discriminating as they are preserving the Dharma and divinity of caste.

    If caste is loathsome then why are Hindu spiritual leaders or Gurus not advising Hindus to disown Caste? Could you tell us why loathsome caste is being preserved as the divine order?

  14. Harmeet Singh,

    First of all, Rajiv Malhotra speaks of Truth claims. Dharmic traditions make certain Truth Claims, just as Christianity and Islam make Truth Claims.

    Each may consider his system to be right, but Rajiv Malhotra is saying that when one tries to do comparative religious studies, one should use the notion of Truth Claims in order to attain some level of neutrality and to avoid bias.

    Rajiv Malhotra has spelt out the differences between the Judeo-Christian and the Dharmic Truth Claims. That is what Being Different is about. He is not making any claims here as to what is better or superior than the other.

    You on the other hand, wish to discuss something totally different, and that is the standard bile Macaulayists spew out against Dharmic traditions, more specifically against Hinduism, or Brahmins – caste, caste, caste! Why don’t bring in Sati, and widow remarriage, and dowry and female infanticide and lack of toilets in India. Yawn!

    If you want to make your standard pitch on Hinduism and its “vices”, fine, do it! But that is not a Review of the Book – Being Different! That is standard low I.Q. Macaulayist/Marxist trash!

  15. That’s irrational, the idea of caste being ‘divine order’, and utterly false, if not mendacious, of Mr. Singh to suggest that mainstream Hindus are spiritedly advocating it. Rajiv Malhotra has done excellent work in arguing that the narrative of Indian history is too often in the hands of people who wish to denigrate it or push India and its considerable achievements, as well as Hinduism, into the background. He strongly argues for Indian particularity and individuality, while in no way promoting an absence of morality, as the world understands it, or cosmological anarchy.

  16. By the way casteism is much more prevalent in Sikhism than Hinduism as of now.I doubt if their has been a single Non-jatt Chief Minister of Indian state of Punjab.Discrimination against dalit sikhs is at all time high.Just check the constitution of SGPC and other sikh institutions . Apart from jatts there is hardly any other community represented in these organisations.

  17. Harmeet ji,

    The reference of Brihadaranyaka is incorrect.

    Brihadaranyaka 06.04.09 (6th Chapter, 4th Brahmana, 9th shloka) says following –

    स यामिच्छेत्
    कामयेत मेति
    तस्यामर्थं निष्ठाय
    मुखेन मुखँ संधायोपस्थमस्या अभिमृश्य
    जपेद्
    अङ्गादङ्गात्संभवसि
    हृदयादधिजायसे |
    स त्वमङ्गकषायोऽसि
    दिग्धविद्धमिव मादय्
    एमाममूं मयीति

    “With her whom one desires, with the wish, ‘May she desire me back”, after inserting the phallus, while kissing lips and caressing thighs, he should speak –

    ‘You who came from every part of my body,
    You, who originates from deep within my heart,
    You are fragrance of my body
    Dissolve her in me, being intoxicated by me”

    Where in this shloka, do you find anything about raping a woman? Similarly, there is nothing of this sort in verse 21 of same upanishad, nor is anything like this in between these two verses.

    Let me give you the correct reference. This is found in 7th verse of this brahmana. and the translation isn’t as melodramatic and flowery as what you have given.

    Furthermore, it is ironic that you quoted from Brihadaranyaka, while castigating Hinduism about “caste system” since this very upanishad speaks about story of Satyakaama Jaabaal elucidating how Jaati (community one is born into) is not the criteria for one’s Varna. Does Jaati really translate as Caste?

  18. RajeshA,

    You need to change the definition of truth for yourself in order claim what Malhotra saying is a “truth claim”

    Please read my article again carefully. I have mentioned how Mr Malhotra actually claims that the so-called truths of Dharma are beyond the moral discernment of reason and science. Surpinsingly, his deformed logic leads him to claim that Hindu spirituality and cosmology therefore is thus Science. This is another one of tortured logic of deception.

    Malhotra ends up claiming that Hindu spirituality gives a Hindu spiritual strength to over-ride truth of reason and science.

    So, unless you and Malhotra want to change the definition of truth with pathological spiritual strength of moral annihilation motivated to subvert truth you may not have actually experienced the “truth”.

    Varun,

    Please read the divine genesis of caste from the Rig Veda that is also entirely missed by the book in its comparison with Biblical genesis of mankind which doesn’t make Hinduism any different from Christianity.

    Harry,

    It is true that Sikhs do suffer from Hindu ailment of caste(although, in a rudimentary form) however, you fail to get the point.
    How many Untouchables were created by the Sikhism or Sikhs in history?

    Kalchiron,

    I am quoting you verse 7.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15097.htm

    7. If she do not give in 2, let him, as he likes, bribe her (with presents). And if she then do not give in, let him, as he likes, beat her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her 3, saying: ‘With manly strength and glory I take away thy glory,’–and thus she becomes unglorious

    Do you think this is not rape of a woman? Or is it the strength and glory of a Hindu over a woman?

  19. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    I have mentioned how Mr Malhotra actually claims that the so-called truths of Dharma are beyond the moral discernment of reason and science. Surpinsingly, his deformed logic leads him to claim that Hindu spirituality and cosmology therefore is thus Science. This is another one of tortured logic of deception.

    You seem to try to claim that you represent reason and science. From where do you source this claim? You obviously are a victim of Western Universalism yourself, should you claim that reason and science have only a singular tradition and evolution. On what basis can you discount the claim to reason and science in say the tradition of the Indic Civilization.

    Your claim seem to be that only through “reason and science” as sanctioned by the dominating Western Civilization, can an analysis of Dharmic Civilization be undertaken. Why do you preclude that Dharmic Civilization cannot do self-analysis? Why do you preclude that Dharmic Civilization cannot apply “reason and science” as developed in its own traditions on itself. In fact Dharmic traditions have been doing so for ages.

    There is nothing in your writings which say your application of “reason and science” in your analysis of Dharma or ‘Being Different’ is truly on any plane of objectivity. You are using selectivity, misrepresentation, far too many adjectives, far too many exclamations like “Oh my God, Oh my God, how surprising, how surprising”! You are simply following an agenda. Not even the standard of “reason and science” that is so highly vaunted in the Western tradition of “reason and science” seems to be met.

    All this use of words like “Surprisingly”, “tortured logic”, “deception” etc. basically belong in the tradition of Western left-liberalism, which uses these rhetorical flourishes to hide the lack of strong arguments. So these are just another sign of the sheer weakness of your argumentation.

    In fact, the idea of “Truth Claims” viz-a-viz Truth is far more intrinsic to the Dharmic worldview. Whereas all seek the Truth, one’s claims of having found it, are treated as Truth Claims. A Truth Claim is treated with respect unless one can disprove it, for it can theoretically be true. That is the basis of plurality and respect for it in Dharmic traditions.

  20. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    The author’s depiction of the West as racist and imperialistic is stereotypical. In doing so, he himself does the same he accuses the West of doing.

    So let me see, if somebody accuses some tabloid journalist of defamation and presses charges against him, then it is equivalent to the journalist also pleading reverse defamation. :roll:

    The tag of imperialism sticks to the West, because it has used the colonialism-era economic and political control, colonialism-funded scientific and technological head-start and the post-colonial world order to assert the claim of its universalism.

    The tag of racism sticks to the West, because despite all that the West has appropriated from India, not just in form of wealth, but also in form of knowledge, the West has failed to acknowledge the source of this wealth and more importantly the source of this knowledge. The tag of racism sticks, because the attack on Dharmic Civilization continues unabated, as is amply clear from this “review” to show that it is unworthy of respect or right to exist, that it must bow to Western narrative on “reason and science” and its claims on universalism.

  21. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    “Purva Paksha”, the author describes is an approach to rebut “an opponent” in order to establish one’s own view point. The approach is seriously flawed as author seeks to disprove “an opponent” simply on the assumption that his own view is disprovable.

    Through this elusive approach, the author provides Hindu India a divine security against moral disapproval of history. It doesn’t become too far for a reader to conclude that the “opponent” in the case of a “Purva Paksha” is not just the West but morality and reason that needs to be annihilated in order to establish the Dharma.

    Obviously either you have not understood “Purva Paksha” or you have decided to mischaracterize it.

    First of all Purva Paksha does not provide any “divine security”. Purva Paksha is simply a method of analysis of the other, cognizant of what one’s own school of thinking is, and observant and respectful of the other’s claims about himself. It is an honest means to try to understand the other in one’s own categories. To some extent West too has done just that, with the exception that many are not in favor of either being truly observant or respectful of Dharma.

    The West has done an analysis of Dharmic Civilization more with the agenda of showing it to be inferior, and thus they have invariably used the tools of selectivity, something you too tend to use with unbridled eagerness.

    The Purva Paksha, Rajiv Malhotra speaks of is not to show the others as inferior, but to understand them better using one’s own categories. It is not just about highlighting the faults of the others.

    This requires deep knowledge of oneself and using one’s own categories a deep analysis of the other. Purva Paksha is not about selective rebuking and moralizing, but about comprehensive understanding of the other.

    The reason why this is so awesomely challenging is, because for this, one needs to first have the categories in order to analyse the other. Often when this is not possible, one would need to extend one’s own categories according to one’s philosophy and philology in order to understand the other. It leads to an organic expansion of one’s own philosophy and philosophical categories.

    So yes the West would be remapped in Dharmic categories, and even West’s efforts at morality and reason, would also be deconstructed into Dharmic worldview.

    We are speaking of debate and understanding here.

    You however use the word “annihilated”. How does that take place? How do you “annihilate” morality and reason? Would Westerners be then running around the streets in the West as beasts, cannibals and zombies?

    So just because one deconstructs conventional thinking or provides a different perspective on one’s sense of morality and reason, should one believe that the world is going to go in a tailspin? No, it simply means that the West would be philosophically challenged to produce better arguments for its standpoints.

    The West need not worry that all of a sudden all morality in India would be “annihilated” and we will start eating babies!

  22. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    The question that aptly needs to be asked is if disorder and chaos evoke “creative tendencies” in a Hindu then isn’t it also true that chaos in a Hindu mind evokes the creative comfort? And, the more chaotic and disordered a Hindu is, the more he is counterbalanced?

    Nice, but mere word play! Or you seem to be experiencing chaos yourself.

    You may ask the question if A is true then whether B is also true, but the connection of the two is simply word jugglery and not some logical relationship.

    According to ‘Being Different’ Hindu mind is not perceiving ‘chaos’ in the same sense as a Western mind would, and if the Hindu mind does not experience ‘chaos’, then how does the question of ‘creative comfort’ arise?

    So when your arguments don’t stick, you resort to word jugglery?

    A reader may be knocked out in listening to sacred word salad like “inner transformation of consciousness” with “adhyatmika practice” that make no scientific sense but from what it seems clear, the inner transformation of consciousness of a Hindu mind happens by overcoming his own moral ability to reason as a practice to reach “ultimate truth”.

    With the “embodied-knowledge’, a Hindu can transgress all Laws including the Law of Excluded Middle and is therefore encouraged to have contradictory experience to obtain “ultimate truth”.

    Hinduism as such increases the spiritual flexibility of an individual, according to the author, whereas, reason becomes unpalatable to the spirituality a Hindu.

    Obviously somebody was knocked out due to lack of understand.

    In order to apply any laws of logic, it is necessary that the propositions be properly contextualized. Without fully contextualized propositions one cannot apply those laws, including the Law of Excluded Middle. It is wrong to demand acceptance of an application of these laws of logic on insufficiently contextualized propositions, but this is exactly what is being demanded by adherents of pseudo-Moralism.

    Inner Sciences refer to the Science of the Consciousness and Mind. Would you want to say that there exists no mind and no consciousness? Because if the mind and consciousness exist, then there must be ways and means on how to both manipulate them and to study them.

    Western Psychology is one effort to venture into this area, but Western Psychology allows only a weak grasp on the object of its study – the mind, and the tool required to observe and study the object, i.e. the mind of the psychologist, may itself not be trained enough. Furthermore all the models and theories built around this subject allow only indirect or no validation. Is psychology a science?

    “adhyatmika practice” deals with mind and consciousness in a much more direct way – both the object and the subject merge, and when the subject itself becomes the object, then one starts immersing oneself in “applied philosophy”!

    So for one who is a master of “adhyatmika” sciences, even “external world” scientists and thinkers would indeed look like handicapped people, unable to use their full potential to understand.

    But then one only has the other’s claim that he is a master of “adhyatmik” sciences, and one need to believe that. That can be verified only by others who too have mastered the “inner sciences”!

    When you say “reason becomes unpalatable to the Hindu”, perhaps you would rather like to say, that “unsound reasoning becomes unpalatable to the Bodhisattva (enlightened) Hindu”.

    Now a Hindu may or may not be enlightened, only a small minority may be.

  23. RajeshA wrote,

    “should you claim that reason and science have only a singular tradition and evolution……

    Why do you preclude that Dharmic Civilization cannot apply “reason and science” as developed in its own traditions on itself. In fact Dharmic traditions have been doing so for ages.”

    There is nothing known as development of reason and science in a tradition. Reason and Science are universal and are not subjects of tradition or religion.

    By thus claiming Hindu Pseudo-science as science –which is what “Purva Paksha” becomes – the author is opposing true science.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “On what basis can you discount the claim to reason and science in say the tradition of the Indic Civilization”.

    Well! the question really is- what are the claims of author’s “Dharmic Civilization” that are based on reason and science?

    In fact, Malhotra doesn’t claim these “truth claims” of Dharmic Civilization need to be based on reason and objectivity of science. I suggest you to read my review again.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “Inner Sciences refer to the Science of the Consciousness and Mind. Would you want to say that there exists no mind and no consciousness? Because if the mind and consciousness exist, then there must be ways and means on how to both manipulate them and to study them”

    Of course one can study mind but to be a science the claims must be empirically and objectively verified. However, because you claim mind exits, on what basis you can claim its manipulation is its study?

    None of what you claim or is claimed as “inner science” of Hindu spirituality can be empirically verified or has shown by the author to be scientifically studied at all. To call it science is manipulation.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “In fact, the idea of “Truth Claims” viz-a-viz Truth is far more intrinsic to the Dharmic worldview. Whereas all seek the Truth, one’s claims of having found it, are treated as Truth Claims. A Truth Claim is treated with respect unless one can disprove it, for it can theoretically be true”.

    Could you please then tell us what are these “intrinsic claims of truth”? Are they based on reason?

    Tell us how the tradition of “reason and science” in Dharmic Civilization has justified the enslavement of humanity into millions of Shudras (caste-slaves) and millions of Pariahs as Untouchables. The author has no mention about the “reason and science” of Dharma that has created an entrenched blood order of society.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “According to ‘Being Different’ Hindu mind is not perceiving ‘chaos’ in the same sense as a Western mind would, and if the Hindu mind does not experience ‘chaos’, then how does the question of ‘creative comfort’ arise?”

    I am just revealing the love of Hindu spirituality with chaos as put by the author himself which is source of “counterbalance” and creativity to a Hindu. A Hindu receives comfort in chaos, according to the author. So, the question really becomes- how much chaos a Hindu really wants to be spiritually satisfied?

  24. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    There is nothing known as development of reason and science in a tradition. Reason and Science are universal and are not subjects of tradition or religion.

    Reason and Science are of universal, but its application in the field of politics, religion, society, etc. are often done on the basis of one’s own sense of morality and one’s ideology.

    So when one speaks of tradition, one means which sense of morality and ideology is setting the agenda for the application of reason and science.

    It is agenda which defines your selectivity of issues, your focus, your use of rhetoric, your choice of discussion partners, etc. Your application of reason and science is subjective. There is nothing universal about it.

    In fact, Malhotra doesn’t claim these “truth claims” of Dharmic Civilization need to be based on reason and objectivity of science. I suggest you to read my review again.

    And I presume Christians are everyday parading “souls” in front of the camera! Have they already located in which constellation “heaven” is? Perhaps there is a “Jinn” in some zoo in Baghdad?

    Cosmologies are based on beliefs and not proofs. However Dharmics do assert that through meditation, some Rishis are able to experience spiritual experiences. Buddha was able to “remember” his past incarnations.

    Of course one can study mind but to be a science the claims must be empirically and objectively verified. However, because you claim mind exits, on what basis you can claim its manipulation is its study?

    None of what you claim or is claimed as “inner science” of Hindu spirituality can be empirically verified or has shown by the author to be scientifically studied at all. To call it science is manipulation.

    At the moment one can only measure brain activity and patterns. Through the change therein one can study different states of meditation.

    However the experience of a consciousness is subjective. Only a subject can really feel it. Others may be able to replicate that state of mind, and one can exchange notes about one’s experience.

    The mind is the object, the mind is the tool and the mind is the subject! There is as far as I know no known ways of measuring mind, except through observation of its performance when used or through inquiry.

    The empirical proof comes if others can repeat a similar “inner” experience and verify the results.

    I assume you yourself are confused about what kind of empiricism you are looking for. What do you wish to measure, in what units, and using which instruments?

    Tell us how the tradition of “reason and science” in Dharmic Civilization has justified the enslavement of humanity into millions of Shudras (caste-slaves) and millions of Pariahs as Untouchables. The author has no mention about the “reason and science” of Dharma that has created an entrenched blood order of society.

    Perhaps Christians would like to tell everybody how come Jesus sanctioned commercial slavery, or how he blessed all the genocides they have partaken in, or all the blood that is sticking to their hands!

    So give us a break with your caste bile! Why don’t you respond to Kalchiron? Is jaati caste or is varna caste?

    Dharma condones no ill-treatment of any human being, nor does Dharma says that jaati dictates one’s varna! If some jaatis decided to go against Dharma and instituted untouchability, etc., all that Dharma can do is to inspire people to fight against these evils.

    Anyway Rajiv Malhotra does not say we cannot change any “traditions”, and Smritis, which may taken hold in society. We can cut out casteism from Hindu society and it would not hurt Dharma one bit. In fact one would be acting as per Dharma.

    I am just revealing the love of Hindu spirituality with chaos as put by the author himself which is source of “counterbalance” and creativity to a Hindu. A Hindu receives comfort in chaos, according to the author. So, the question really becomes- how much chaos a Hindu really wants to be spiritually satisfied?

    You are confusing yourself. The Dharmic has no chaos! He needs no chaos for his spirituality! It is the Westerner who sees chaos in Hinduism because his mind is not attuned to understanding such complexity!

    Just as one needs some spices to enhance the flavor of one’s palate, one needs some chaos in the order, to enhance further development. Watch Matrix Reloaded if you don’t understand this.

    1. RajeshA,

      You are excellent to the point that you have nothing to say about the creation of Untouchables and caste-Slaves by the Hindu scriptures and moreover to cunningly conceal heinous high-caste barbarism entrenched in Hindu Dharma against lower-castes and Untouchables, you blame it on some “Jaatis.”

      Are there no cruelties on lower-castes and Untouchables as caste Hindu practices in the Hindu scriptures?

      You wrote:

      “Reason and Science are of universal, but its application in the field of politics, religion, society, etc. are often done on the basis of one’s own sense of morality and one’s ideology”.

      So when one speaks of tradition, one means which sense of morality and ideology is setting the agenda for the application of reason and science”.

      “Cosmologies are based on beliefs and not proofs”.

      I am glad that you yourself agree to that there are no proofs in Hindu Cosmology but nevertheless still maliciously assert that these cosmological Hindu practices are science without any scientific proof?
      You are opposing your own self however somehow it makes sense to you?

      Or, are these practices so sacred that they don’t require proof?

      Reason and Science are not used for agenda of tradition and religion. This is a typical caste Hindu view which I have covered in my review. A Hindu subjugates everything including science and reason to make it work for his own caste-ridden morality and religion.
      There are no modern rationalists or Philosophers who would support your view. I hope that you will re-evaluate Hindu derived views of Dharma about science and reason.

    2. Carl,

      The Hindu scriptures are no more confidential. The translation is authentic and even endorsed by many high-caste Brahmins of India like India’s President Radhakrishnan.

      Your no-sense explanation actually concludes even worse which is that a Hindu is allowed use symbolism of rape for spiritual auspiciousness.

      It is sickening.

  25. Dear Harmeet,

    Re: your quote from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad apparently advocating rape –

    The actual Sanskrit isn’t as dramatic as your translation. Secondly, the Brihadaranyaka Up. comes under Yajurveda branch. In the same branch, the Mahanarayana Up. gives sattvika (mode of goodness) interpretations of the elements of jnAna-yajna (cognitive sacrifice), including of apparently tamasika (dark) acts involving “dharma-hiMsa” (Dharmic violence interpreted in different ways). This “hiMsa” can be in skandAskanda modes, i.e., “violence sport” or “sexual sport”. For example, killing of the ‘sacrificial animal’ is considered killing one’s anger. Similarly, “stree-purusha” (male-female) interaction is of elemental aspects of being, such as Atman (soul) & shareera (mind-body). The same applies to the Upanishad you quoted out of context. It is because of the possibility of such mischief and misinterpretation, that certain Vedic texts were traditionally kept confidential. The Hindu Smritis always mention that any Vedic sacrifice conducted with one’s wife brings pleasure and auspiciousness to *both*. One ought to be careful when using some European colonial’s translations.

  26. Dear Harmeet,

    I have pointed out the hermeneutic from the Mahanarayana Upanishad of the same branch. Surely your other sources must acknowledge that too? Not sure why you found it a “no-sense” explanation, though your disgust is understandable. To give some perspective – All Vedic scriptures are divided into 3 modes of nature – goodness (sattva), passion (rajas) and darkness (tamas). A lot of Sikhism and its spiritual idiom, for instance, matches up with the Passion scriptures of Hinduism. Above that are the Sattvik (Goodness) scriptures, which sound very sublime and gentle to the senses. And below that are the Tamasik (Dark) scriptures, which use idioms from the darker side of human nature.

    In this way, Veda caters to the inner idiom of different types of human beings. It is good that you find it disgusting, it indicates your own nature is of a higher quality. But realize that there are people out there who do have a lower subconscious nature, and rather than allow that nature to express itself in material perversion, it is better to dovetail it with spiritual esotericism in order to sublimate it and liberate them.

    As for your anger towards the caste system (and rightly so), it is another shameful perversion of Hindu scripture. Here are a couple of direct quotes that should be of intellectual comfort:

    जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्काराद्विज उच्यते (Skanda Purana) – “Everyone is born shudra, and by a process of refinement can become Dwija (twice born).”

    And from the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says that one’s Varna is determined by one’s inner quality (guna) and one’s external actions to develop it (karm). Hope it helps.

  27. Is reviewer trying to review a book or Author or Hinduism? Reviewer clearly has hidden agenda against Hindus, and lost his sense that he writing a review of a book not a religion.

    Mr Malhotra’s book is trying to level the field which is heavily tilted by biased and one sided understanding of the Western scholar and their blind followers like Harmeet.

  28. Harmeet,

    Shankara dismissed chapter 6 as an inserted Smriti. Shankara remains the most authentic of Advaita scholars till date. Swami Krishnanand too only mentions 5 chapters in this Upanishad. Imagine 5 chapters one discusses the concepts of the3 Self, Brahman, Atman, Transcendentalism above worldy desire in the solitude of a Forest (This Upanishad is to be contemplated in a Forest) and then bang talks about beating a Wife for Sex?

    Check the similarity with the following:

    <<>>

    These are texts that have been passed on four over 3000 and more years. There have been many instances where outsiders have seeked to contaminate many Dharmic texts. But if you apart from your obvious Hatred for the Dharmic read the first 5 chapters with honest objectivity, you will realize that Chapter 6 is completely incongruous. That is why even Max Mueller did not translate these parts.

    But then it is great propaganda for those that seek to undermine Dharma. The first 5 Chapters are some of the most profound knowledge..and the qualities that are strongly recommended before reading this are rising above the crass and desire..no it’s not meant for everyone surely..certainly not for those that beat their wives for sex.

  29. Carl,

    I am glad that you agree that there is “darker” side of Hindu scriptures. However, where did you get this idea that Hindu scriptures are classified into three modes of nature? What is your source?

    If you read the verse I quoted, thee is nothing of that sort written as claimed by you. The verse is very clear and unambiguous in its command to rape a woman as a virtue on basis of attaining glory and strength.

    Rape is conduct so morally reprehensible that the civilized world considers it as crime against humanity however; according to your explanation Hindu scriptures have used crimes like murder and rape as virtues for spiritual liberation.

    Here, please read it again:

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15097.htm

    “6. If a man sees himself in the water, he should recite the following verse: ‘May there be in me splendour, strength, glory, wealth, virtue.’

    She is the best of women whose garments are pure. Therefore let him approach a woman whose garments are pure, and whose fame is pure, and address her.

    7. If she do not give in, let him, as he likes, bribe her (with presents). And if she then do not give in, let him, as he likes, beat her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her, saying: ‘With manly strength and glory I take away thy glory,’–and thus she becomes unglorious”

    Please tell, how does spiritually telling men to rape women in Hindu scriptures actually liberate them?

    Secondly,
    You are contradicting Rig Veda(with posted verse from Purana) which explicitly states people are born into four varnas(castes)and not as Shudhras.

    Even if what you are claiming is true, what is wrong done by new-born babies that you are all labeling them as Shudhras?

    Sunil,

    Thanks for the comment however, you need to read the book to find out author’s Hindu derived ideas about science, reason and of course about the rest of us.

  30. I read the book just like you did, but my understanding is better than yours. It is not a science book nor to discredit any religion. It is about comparison between Dharmaic and judo-Christian religion. How Dharma is different than others. Being different doesn’t mean someone is superior or inferior than other.

    You termed “reversing the gaze as reversing the truth”, shows your IQ level about literary world is zero (fyi zero is given by Dharmic people). You have reduced yourself to a pedestrian-shouting man by creating a biased opinion. Whereas you might have created a piece of literary work by creating a balanced opinion, but your hatred does not allow.

  31. Sunil,

    I suggest you to read the title of the book carefully that specifically states author’s objective; that is to rebut “western universalism” and not what you claim to be.

    The author nowhere defines what Dharma is therefore, how is Dharma different from others? It more or less seems to be the same as Judeo-Christianity in many ways too.

    Thanks for giving me a zero. I didn’t know the “dharmic people” have an instant method to evaluate other’s IQ. Since there is no zero point on IQ scale (unless of course IQ is also viewed from Dharmic people)- could you please tell me more about the intelligence of the Dharmic people who have come with this scale?

    Is this an application of their “inner sciences”?

  32. Harmeet –

    Anyone half familiar with Hinduism knows about the tri-guna classification and interpretation of Veda. The same with the difference between jAti and varNa. Your ignorance is astounding, and in direct proportion to your increasingly aggressive fanaticism. Instead of mindless polemics, if you can demonstrate the ability for intellectual integrity, then only will you be considered worthy of discussion. Right now you’re talking AT people, not with them.

    If you have a grudge of some kind, be open about it. Don’t try to go around finding evil roots of a tradition that your own faith Sikhism is an offshoot of.

  33. “The reality of Hindu society governed by Caste has been completely concealed…”

    So now you want to define the agenda what needs to be written by the author?

  34. Harmeet, the Rig Veda Purusha Sukta does not say anywhere that “””You are contradicting Rig Veda(with posted verse from Purana) which explicitly states people are born into four varnas(castes)and not as Shudhras.”””

    The Purusha Sukta does not attribute one’s place in the class system to birth nor does the Bhagawad Gita.

    Warriors were created from the arms of God and the priests were from his head and the merchants from his abdomen and the laborers from his legs. This may be interpreted as meaning that no one caste is more important than the other and that society cannot survive without all parts working together.

    In the Mahabharata Yudhistra gets heaven only after answering Yama’s trick question..the answer to what makes a Brahmin..was conduct alone determines a Brahmin, not Birth. Yudhistra got heaven confirmed on the basis of that answer..

    You are proving your knowledge to be of a very low level. A woman indeed becomes Inglorious if one penetrates her forcefully. And if both partake like consenting adults, she retains her glory. That is what the verse says.

    If you didn’t know about 3 guna’s, you should not be commenting or writing biased articles. In Dharma hatred is Tamasic. Your interpretation from a Tamsic POV will be inherently and fundamentally flawed as it shows up.

  35. The most ancient scriptures—the Shruti texts, or Vedas, place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only rarely and in a cursory manner. A hymn from the Rig Veda seems to indicate that one’s caste is not necessarily determined by that of one’s family:

    I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother’s job is to grind the corn.
    —Rig Veda 9.112.3

  36. Sunil,

    Maybe you know better, why does the author conceals the basis of “Dharmic civilization” based on blood hierarchy?

    Harb,

    Could you source me the reference for your claim about the Upnishad being adulterated?
    And, if it is an adulteration (according to you) then why are you blaming me? Go ahead and clean it up and the other Hindu scriptures too.
    However, there are many Hindus here who actually have different justification than yours.

    Carl,

    I know that Hindu scriptures like Gita describe three mode (tri-guna) classification of nature but there is no classification of Hindu scriptures actually based on these three modes as mentioned by you. Nevertheless; is this the justification to write “dovetail” of rape against women to spiritually ameliorate a Hindu from his “dark nature”?

  37. Harb,

    The whole Purusha Sukta hymn is about the world including animals and other creatures including humans beings being born. How can you therefore say there is no mention of birth? The hymn is about the birth of everything itself.

    By conceding to the fact that human beings are created which is no different from being born – you are consummating the birth also. How can creation of someone be separated from his birth? Birth is part of being created.

    You are implicitly agreeing to caste system yourself by your own definition.

    Harb wrote:

    ” A woman indeed becomes Inglorious if one penetrates her forcefully. And if both partake like consenting adults, she retains her glory. That is what the verse says.”

    Exactly!!

    So, it is the woman who becomes inglorious for being raped by a rapist and not her rapist, according to the verse.

    The verse itself justifies the glory of a rapist and you seem to be justifying this criminal pathology as spiritual education.

  38. Harmeet –

    You are repeatedly parading your ignorance of Vedanta here. The tripartite classification of scripture is attested in all commentaries. Even the Puranas are divided into 6 shakta, 6 shaiva and 6 vaishnava. In the Sikh tradition also you may have noticed that when the Khalsa and violent defence became the vehicle of service, Guru Gobind Singh ji and others sung of Chandi, etc., which is in the Shakta vein, as different from Guru Nanakdev who used the Names of Vishnu. Without knowing the ABC’s of the Vedic tradition, you will hardly have any insight into your own scriptures, which is the funny part of your tirade. Your self-loathing and attempt to individuate from a profound Indian tradition that is a universal heritage will fail even if you try to hide behind some moralistic dogma and its exclusivity.

    By the way, it is not the “dark side” of “the Hindu”, it is the dark side of what Sigmund Freud called “the polymorphous pervert”, and Freud said nothing about this psychology being limited to “the Hindu”. Your perverted and tendentious mendacity is growing with every reply. If you want to graduate past yellow journalism, you had better reform.

  39. Dear Carl,

    I am sorry to intrude myself here. Honestly I am intrigued by your statement of classification of Hindu scriptures based upon three “gunas.” I am not familiar with this idea. I have copies of 4 Vedas in my home library. Can you teach me how can I apply these three “gunas” to differentiate one Veda from the other? Thanks

  40. Dear GB,

    As you probably know, the 4 Vedas themselves have an epistemic hierarchy. Further, the root Vedas like the Rk are in the form of a chiasm. The structure and selection of relative importances is by the hermeneutic of co-ordinate predication (samanyadhikarana and vyadhikarana) as described in the Vedanta Sutra Bhashyas, such as those of Madhvacharya, Adi Shankara, and Shriman Ramanuja. The descriptions of the gunas is, of course, found in all Upanishadic and Pauranik sources. The explicit classification is indicated in several of these, such as the Padma Purana. In the Puranas, the classification is neatly delineated, since these come lower down the morphological tree. The Vedas are the seed and roots, and so therein it is woven into its fabric, etc. The point is – to understand Veda, there was a System of various fields of knowledge, starting with at least 4 basic tantra-chatushtaya. This is an epistemic hierarchy, not an ontological one. Therefore, when there are questions raised, one ought to get one’s information from bona fide sources, or use appropriate intellectual tools. But Harmeet ji is recklessly using motivated translations by foreign sources, and then points to folks like S. Radhakrishnan who belonged to a coterie of self-declared “neo-Vedantists” whose “modernist” mindset was influenced by the moralistic barrage that the colonial sources battered Indian minds with in order to confuse them and alienate them from their roots. Pity that even at this point in India’s rise from the ashes, Harmeet is suffering from the same confusion.

  41. Carl,

    “Polymorphic perversity”, according to Freud comprises sexual stages during infancy of humans.

    You seem to be using the rape of a woman by a Man as a distinct sexual stage of development of a Man’s “Polymorphic perversity” as per the attributes of the lower “Gunas” and modes mentioned by you and in the Hindu Scriptures.

    Freud nowhere mentions rape of woman as “Polymorphic perversity” in sexual development of infant at all.

    Please tell, how does rape of a woman justified as a sexual stage aids in development of spirituality of a Hindu?

  42. Dear Carl,

    Thank you for your “reply.” I hope you realize that you are trying to confuse me. I have a simple brain and I need a simple answer. Would you please try to answer my question? Thanks brother!

  43. Harmeet –

    Your cocksure BS cannot hide your ignorance anymore. “Freud doesn’t talk about rape complex” he says LOL!! Since you don’t have the humility to admit a mistake or a gap in your knowledge, I suggest you bow out when you still have a figleaf of honour left to cover your nudity. Or should I save you the trouble?

    GB ji –

    I hope you realize that you are not being sincere in your “questions”. I have given you ample pointers in my reply. Just pursue each one of them and you will be able to understand. I even gave you direct references such as from the Padma Purana and the commentaries of the 3 Acharyas. Look it up. Anyone with ANY familiarity with Vedanta knows this tri-guna classification. The stalwart Adi shankara even omits this portion of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad for the same reason. The fact that you claim to be unaware of such stark facts shows that you (or Harmeet) have not put any effort into researching original sources. If you expect a full thesis on Vedanta on an internet blog, your honest intentions must be questioned, no? “I have the 4 Vedas at home” just won’t cut it, I’m afraid. You should have known the difference between the Samhitas and the subsequent treatises at the very least. Good luck.

  44. GB –

    On the off chance that your question was half-sincere, here’s some spoonfeeding. It may serve as a useful point of departure for you – look up Acharya Madhva’s Rg-Bhashya (commentary on the RigVeda). Some brief points:

    There are 4 levels of interpretation of the Vedas:
    (a) adhibhautika – in space and time
    (b) adhidaivika – metaphysical, in terms of divinities and demoniac forces
    (c) adhyatmika – psychological
    (d) adhivishnu – transcendental

    At the 4th level, there is no higher or lower, everything is transcendental. But at the first 3 levels, there is tAratamya (hierarchy). For instance at the second hermeneutic:

    स होवाच महिमान एवैषामेते त्रयस्त्रिँशत्त्वेव देवा इति कतमे ते त्रयस्त्रिँशदित्यष्टौ वसव एकादश रुद्रा द्वादशादित्यास्त एकत्रिंशदिन्द्रश्चैव प्रजापतिश्च त्रयस्त्रिँशाविति॥

    “There are 33 devas in the celestial world, in terms of performance of yagnas (worship). They are eight Vasus, eleven Rudras, twelve Adityas, Indra, and Prajapati, and these groups, are mentioned already in the Rigveda.” – Brihad Aranyaka – subsidiary gloss to RigVeda, quoted by Madhva.

    Corresponding to each of these 33 macro levels are psychological gradations, gradations of knowledge, felicity, etc. The trigunatmika classification is based on this, and is like the 3 primary colours combining to give the full spectrum. Please look up the Rg-Bhashya for a full exposition connecting all the dots.

  45. Carl,

    You falsely attributed to me this statement:

    “Freud doesn’t talk about rape complex”

    That is not my statement and there is no such thing as “rape complex” by Freud in my reply.

    It is obvious that you are making up things that aren’t even said by me and playing foul to evade the practiced criminality in the Hindu Scriptures by deceit.

    So lets get back to the point:

    Since you have essentially conceded that rape of a woman is a stage of sexual development like Freudian “polymorphic perversity” in Hindu Scriptures: Is it therefore not true to say that raping a woman defines the spiritual development of a Hindu?

  46. To add to Carls point, there are 8 kinds of marriages the Vedas quote from one under the auspices of Brahman to the Rakshasa marriage. This exists. Same with Varna. Nowhere as Harmeet twists is mentioned that a Brahmin is by Birth. It is conduct alone which determines a Brahmin as i mentioned in the previous post. But Harmeet deviously twists it to mean that since the Varna’s came from different parts of the Primordial beings being, it implies Creation=Birth so Brahmin is or Varna is determined by Birth. Which the Scriptures do not endorse with many examples to the counter, as i have posted the quote from the Rg Veda..

    The Varna system exists in every society. It is a fact of life..the College professors, Intellectuals are people disposed or trained to use mental faculties. Soldiers and farmers use physical prowess, Wall Street Execs and traders their Business prowess and Hotel management and hospitality industry the Services initiative. This is nature and the Veda points it out as these natures emanate from the Primordial iteself.

    Fact is if a man forces himself on a Woman she becomes inglorious. If both partake like consenting adults..both gain glory. There is a literal way of looking at it and interpreting it in a different tense and another in looking at the Purushas dominating interaction with Prakriti.

    Even in context of the entire Upanishad, what must NOT be is to look at it in a simplistic manner. Even if there was a Chapter 6 and this is part of the Upanishad that for 5 chapters exhorting transcendence, destroying crass desire, Meditation on the Self sitting alone in a remote Forest..the only sane interpretaion would not be literal, but a figurative of Purusha’s domination of Prakriti as fact.

    That was possibly the reason Max Mueller, Shankara, Krishananda did not translate and include this chapter in the Upanishad. This is a very philosophically deep Upanishad and may take years of study to digest.

    Self evolution is extremely imnportant in understanding of some concepts. Harmeet you clearly don’t make that grade by your posts. It was possibly for that reason this was left out.

    For what exact reason Shankara considered it an insert is not clear. However this judgement is better left to Vedic scholars. The fact that very few people know about this, the fact that most translations do not include this chapter, the fact that inserts have been done by Islamists makes taking a crass stand like:

    Harmeer wrote: “”Is it therefore not true to say that raping a woman defines the spiritual development of a Hindu?””

    Competely biased and hate ridden. No you are not seeking to learn here, you are seeking to bull doze a crass understanding of something way beyond your understanding within the narrow parameters of your thinking. That cannot be adone with this Upanishad or most Shruti. It is not the truth and the way it is understood.

  47. Dear Brother Carl,
    Again thanks for your efforts here. And also thanks for not answering my simple question. I might remind you that it were you who wrote that the Hindu scriptures are classified on the basis of three gunas. I find this statement to be false and that prompted me to ask you my question. You see I have an intense interest in Hinduism, and your earlier questionable statement startled me.

  48. Now consider this verse in Islam, the Koran:

    4:34
    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand

    While the context in the Koran is on Right and left hand possessions and a male in a societal position, the context in the Upanishad is not pertaining to societal norms but the Cosmic nature, transcendentalism. 5 Chapters of deep philosphy and advice to meditate in the forest confirms to that. Hence taking it literally instead of the Purusha – Prakriti primordial relation is fraught with danger in interpretation.

    Take it as a statement of fact, yes a man who forces himself on a woman does make her inglorious.

    Take it as “If you desire sex and bribe her, following which you force yourself on her..she becomes inglorious”. And “if you both do it consensually both attain more glory.”

    The Male species is designed in such a way that he can take away the glory of a woman. Why would the Upanishad exhort someone it has for 5 chapters to transcend even Yash/ fame/ Glory by moving and contemplating in the forest to take away in society a females glory? Contextually very clearly one can see that is not the aim.

  49. Look at it this way on sex..men boast about their sexual exploits, while women prefer privacy. Boys even at school boast about alliances which may never have been except in their imaginations. Rapists too boast and women cringe. The verse is true indeed that she will lose ‘glory’ if forced. Take it as a statement of fact. Avam..Thus: Statement of fact being made. Or Ava : From as a consequence: Indicative of statement of fact.

    Also remember these are 5000 years old. Hindu’s are not famed for rape. Misinterpretation and literal interpretation of these verses as has been done in the Koran leads to rape being legitimized. Not in this instance.

  50. GB –

    You are unable to read? Here, let me summarize:
    1. Read Padma Purana for the trigunatmika classifications.
    2. Read Madhva’s RigBhashya for classification and hierarchy applied to the root Veda itself.
    That’s for starters, since you have an “interest” in Hinduism.

    Harmeet –

    You clearly stated that Freud doesn’t include sex and violence in his conception of the psychodynamics of the id and ego. You should be laughed out of the room! Yet you persist in stubbornly trying to wriggle out of it to save face. Polymorphous perversion is a deep concept that evolves as a gestalt from even pre-natal influences, let alone infancy! At least try to raise your standards and read originals instead of relying on Guru Google. You may have been able to get away with bullshitting the public as far as esoteric Veda is concerned, but you really embarassed yourself when you tried to do the same with Freud.

    Just to repeat – I have already answered the question as to how the Hindu or Buddhist or learned Sikh understands those psychodynamics – as per the clear deciphering of the Mahanarayana Upanishad which belongs to the same branch. It is about purusha (higher nature within) and prakriti (mind-body). E.g., such as when we force ourselves to do something as a matter of spiritual discipline. It is never to be interpreted in an obscene outward sense.

    On the other hand, take a look in the mirror and see who is practicing deceit, quoting out of context, persistent bad faith, and a bitter agenda here.

  51. GB –

    Here’s another famous quote that anyone interested in the RigVeda from traditional sources would know. It gives the epistemic hierarchy of the RigVeda’s own memes:

    अग्निर्वै देवानां अवमो विष्णुः परमस्तदन्तरेण सर्वा अन्या देवता
    “Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among Devas. All other deities occupy positions that are in between.” — Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1, quoted in Madhva’s RigBhashya

    This trigunatmika bheda is further simplified into macro-categories in Hinduism – Agneya, Saura, Shakta, Shaiva, Vaishnava.

    See if someone paid me to do this I could bury you in a ton of references. This should be enough to give the unbiased reader an idea of the BS in this hatchet-job of a “review” by Harmeet, which has unfortunately been published by EurasiaReview.

  52. Harmeet Singh wrote:

    You are excellent to the point that you have nothing to say about the creation of Untouchables and caste-Slaves by the Hindu scriptures and moreover to cunningly conceal heinous high-caste barbarism entrenched in Hindu Dharma against lower-castes and Untouchables, you blame it on some “Jaatis.”

    Are there no cruelties on lower-castes and Untouchables as caste Hindu practices in the Hindu scriptures?

    Harmeet,
    one would be blind and deaf not to admit the oppression by some so called “higher” jaatis of the so-called lower “jaatis”!

    It is not surprising that some castes decided to permanently ascribe a certain varna to themselves to give religious sanction to their Dharmically illegitimate monopolies on power, professions, privileges and status. That has to be rectified, especially because it is Adharmic.

    You are however trying to mischaracterize an historic transgression of Dharma as an aspect of Dharma.

    Shame, shame, shame!

    I am glad that you yourself agree to that there are no proofs in Hindu Cosmology but nevertheless still maliciously assert that these cosmological Hindu practices are science without any scientific proof?
    You are opposing your own self however somehow it makes sense to you?

    Not just Hindu Cosmology, no cosmology whatsoever delivers any proofs.

    Are there any proofs of God making the world in 7 days, or God making woman out of the rib of Adam, or Jabriel talking to Muhammad, or of Heaven and Hell, or Day of Judgment!

    Since you say that Hindu Cosmology does not offer proofs, as it obviously “should”, I would like you to tell me which other cosmology does that, and please do offer some good explanation based on reason and science to the above examples.

    “Adhyatmik vidya” can be considered sciences because yogis and rishis have been conducting these exercises since ages and they have been validating the work of each other.

    So if you reach the level of “adhyatmic gyaan”, maybe you too can validate their findings. Are you there? I know I am not by a long shot there!

    Try teaching psychology to a monkey, and let’s see how much success you get!

    Or, are these practices so sacred that they don’t require proof?

    These practices as such are not sacred in themselves, but they help strive towards the sacred.

    Only those who wish to achieve the sacred, are motivated enough to take up “Adhyatmic” practices seriously and to show the required level of discipline:

    Reason and Science are not used for agenda of tradition and religion. This is a typical caste Hindu view which I have covered in my review. A Hindu subjugates everything including science and reason to make it work for his own caste-ridden morality and religion.

    Dharma propounds no caste-ridden morality. Sure Hindu society has been for a long time been afflicted by this problem.

    Science and reason were always in sync with Dharma, unlike Christianity where scientists were persecuted, and women, who practiced traditional medicine were accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake!

    “Inner Sciences” and “Outer Sciences” exist in harmony with each other. There is no conflict.

    It was not for nothing that India was one of the foremost centers of knowledge, sciences AND technology in the pre-Islamic era.

    There are no modern rationalists or Philosophers who would support your view. I hope that you will re-evaluate Hindu derived views of Dharma about science and reason.

    You are free to dedicate your life to do the dirty work of Macaulayists. It is only a matter of time before the veil that they have spread over the world and India is lifted! Truth Always Prevails!

  53. Harmeet –

    You said:” There are no modern rationalists or Philosophers who would support your view. I hope that you will re-evaluate Hindu derived views of Dharma about science and reason.”

    Try reading any of the most avant garde philosophers of science, such as Fritjoff Capra. Quantum Physicists and the like have heavily drawn on Dharmic philosophy and scripture for the last 90 years. Earlier it used to be Buddhism that was the fad, then it became Advaita Vedanta of Adi Shankara, and nowadays they have arrived at the Dvaita Vedanta of people like Madhva. One reason is the emerging “consilience of knowledge”, where subjects like biology, psychology and physics are intersecting. That is where they have arrived at Veda as a prime source of ontological gradations, due to its holographic worldview. Look it up – you may even find it on Guru Google!

    Strange, isn’t it, how the greatest scientific minds on Earth bathe their intellects in Vedic and Dharmic thought, while brainwashed self-loathing wogs like you are peddling Macaulayist trash about “caste-ridden philosophy”.

  54. Dear Carl,

    You answered something else. I didn’t ask you the alleged three quality classification depicting the the Hindu deities. My question was a different one: It dealt with the alleged classification of Hindu scriptures (specifically Vedas) based upon three gunas.

  55. Carl,

    It seems that if you can make a dupe of yourself, you would.

    Freud does talk about sexual abuse but as an attribute of deviance and criminality not as a normal psycho-dynamic id, as supposedly seen by a Hindu.

    There is no Scientist or Psychologist who thinks raping a woman is a sexual stage of development as described in the Hindu scriptures.

    As you said,

    ” E.g., such as when we force ourselves to do something as a matter of spiritual discipline. It is never to be interpreted in an obscene outward sense”

    Thanks for proving the essential the point of my article that rape can become a practice of spiritual discipline by a Hindu.

    Harb,

    You didn’t answer my question so, let me ask you again:

    Now, if there is a truth that a Brahmin is determined by conduct then how are Untouchables determined?

    By conduct too?

    Secondly, you are attempting to evade my point; How is your birth not part of your creation? Were you created without birth?

    I suggest you to please go over the Purusa-sukta hymn again that clearly describes how everybody is born. The blood determination is practiced by Hindu society and is defended by Hindu society as a historical fact therefore your ideological gymnastics to evade caste mentioned Vdoesn’t sit well.

    If you read the verse- it says clear that raping and beating a woman who refuses to refused to have sex with a man brings glory to a man and shame to a woman unless of course if the woman submits to the sexual demand of a man to retain her glory.

    and you said:

    “The Male species is designed in such a way that he can take away the glory of a woman.”

    Rape is not a subject of glory but criminology.

    If a man commits a rape against a woman, it is not because he is designed to commit crime against woman due to his nature but because he is a criminal.

    Since rape is a subject of glory, it no longer remains criminality but becomes spirituality in Hindu scriptures.

    Which civilized part of the world considers this a fact that a woman who gets beaten and raped is inglorious and the one who rapes her becomes glorious?

    RajeshA wrote:

    “It is not surprising that some castes decided to permanently ascribe a certain varna to themselves to give religious sanction to their Dharmically illegitimate monopolies on power, professions, privileges and status. That has to be rectified, especially because it is Adharmic. “

    The Veda has already ascribed a certain Varna(caste) to everybody. Therefore, where did you come up with that idea that “some castes decided to permanently ascribe a certain varna(caste) to themselves”?

    RajeshA wrote:

    “Adhyatmik vidya” can be considered sciences because yogis and rishis have been conducting these exercises since ages and they have been validating the work of each other.”

    That’s right! The Yogis and Rishis have been conducting lot of experiments on each other’s Lingas(Penises) which are described in the Vajroli mudra and numerous other Yoga sutras. The Yogis and Rishis will do experiment on each other’s Lingas and soon a fountain of Bindu will come out.

    And, that’s how yogis validated it and that’s how it became science.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “So if you reach the level of “adhyatmic gyaan”, maybe you too can validate their findings. Are you there? I know I am not by a long shot there!”

    Why are you long shot away? What are you waiting for? There is not of experimentation that you can do with the Yogis.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “Science and reason were always in sync with Dharma”

    You are again right! No science can ever question the non-sense of Dharma.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “Inner Sciences” and “Outer Sciences” exist in harmony with each other. There is no conflict.”

    That’s also right! There is no doubt it. Every Hindu is a Scientist and therefore, whatever a Hindu says becomes science.

    RajeshA wrote:

    “It was not for nothing that India was one of the foremost centers of knowledge, sciences AND technology in the pre-Islamic era.”

    Absolutely, all the supersonic airplanes, automobiles and locomotives were already developed In India before anybody else.

  56. GB Singh –

    Please scroll up. I said the 18 Puranas were classified into 3. And I said the same classification is woven into the Vedas via tAratamya (hierarchy) along the adhidaivik vector. Learn to read carefully in order to learn. Otherwise stick to a simpler moralistic religion for the common man and don’t waste your time with the subtlety or sophistication of the Vedas. “Intense interest” is not enough.

    Harmeet –

    Thanks for proving that you can’t seem to understand simple English, or resort to willful misunderstanding to avoid admitting that you started out with gibberish. Either you’re a simpleton fool or a deluded rascal. Confess to either one and you could qualify as a genuine spiritual aspirant! :) But I doubt that you would. Please continue to regale us with your Hindu bashing, as well as your own versions of Freud, Vedanta and science. Keep it up.

  57. Harmeet Singh,

    you have not really written a review. What you have done is invited people to try to come and heal your self-hate complex!

    There is nothing novel about your PoV. There are dimes a dozen, who like you, in order to escape the inferiority complex as imposed by the Macaulayist narrative, try to be more loyal than the king, in any of the various offshoots of Macaulay Project, be it as a cultural Marxist, or a Western left-liberal, or some Islamophile, or some Pseudosecular!

    But people here are not bound to deal with what afflicts you!

  58. Dear Carl,

    Yes I understand what you wrote. But you haven’t answered my question. If you don’t know the answer then just say so. Its not a ego-game here we are playing.

  59. GB –

    Really? You are going to lie even though anyone can scroll up and read your question? – “Honestly I am intrigued by your statement of classification of Hindu scriptures based upon three “gunas.” I am not familiar with this idea.”

    This question has been answered with direct references, with philosophical context, and with a fleshing out of hermeneutic levels. Now you want to skip around the fact that your hot air claim of “having 4 Vedas at home” and having an “intense interest in Hinduism” was exposed, because anyone with any amount of serious study would have already known the answers to these questions.

    Let me be clear to you and Harmeet –
    We Hindus have no need to hide behind any moralistic kindergarten kind of religiosity, nor do we feel the need to run for the safety of moral high ground when we see the motivated attacks against our hoary traditions. Hinduism is not a religion where rules are set in stone, and we have 4 different dharma-shastras to prove it. They change according to desha-kaala-paatra (country’s culture, time & circumstance, and the maturity of the people). Fortunately Hinduism never fails to keep producing men and women of the highest moral caliber and spiritual insight, who continually reset the course of Vedic civilization in the face of threats and opportunities. The Sikh Gurus are a fine example of that! So, everything in our tradition stands for what is is and was, and we maintain the records for completeness. At the same time, we continually derive newer meanings and adding to the corpus of our traditions, as wel explore the world of science and metaphysics in a never ending journey of learning, discovery and being human. Humble in front of Mother Nature and the Supreme Being, but regardless for the misconceptions and bad faith of motivated humanoids.

    I suggest Harmeet appreciate this idea and not compare Dharmic traditions with confessional history-centric ideologies like the Semitic and Western “faiths”, which are fine in their own limited place. If Harmeet can truly take a Dharmic viewpoint, he will realize the vastness of the vista, and will drop some of his self-loathing and perhaps feel proud of his heritage, ready to look to a brighter future as India comes out of her shell.

  60. Dear Carl,

    I notice you are not going to answer. That’s okay with me. I am willing to move ahead. Among the Hindu scriptures there is a brand of exotics better known as KAMA-SUTRA, KOKE Shaster etc etc. I have them at my home library. How would you classify them based upon three Gunas? Or would you even classify them at all in the first place? Thanks

  61. GB –

    LOL, clearly, apart from baiting readers, you had no other sincere intentions intruding into this conversation to help your pal Harmeet out! How peurile. For the benefit of other unbiased readers, I will answer your last childish “question”.

    They’re not “scriptures”. There are over 11,000 Tantras (fields of study and systematization). These range from agriculture to architecture, astronomy to philosophy, music to mathematics, warfare to metallurgy, economics to ecology, logic to sexuality. There are Hindu works on logic, astronomy, physics, biology, surgery, dramatics, art, sculpture, architecture. These are simply studies, sciences, arts – with the difference that their axioms have been conceived in a *holistic* view of mankind and his relationship with other living entities and the environment.

    You need to redefine the word “scripture”, from the Western/Abrahamic meaning that is in your head, to an Indic or Dharmic meaning. We don’t have “revealed scripture” that is a bunch of rules and ideologies set in stone and claiming totalitarian “universalism”. We have shruti and smriti. Shruti is, by definition, *abstract* *archetypes* and models of time that are indeed universal by discovered fact, not opinion or imposition. Upanishads are shruti, and this Brihadaranyaka Up. is too. Then there is smriti, which is a lower ontological extension and application on the shruti operating system. Ths smriti outlines processes for elevation, tenets, ideologies, mythos, etc.

    Chalo GB, kaam tamaam. Thanks for finally discrediting yourself and revealing your infantile motivations here. Harmeet has already been discredited and spanked butt naked. Wahe Guruji ki Fateh. Now its up to Eurasia Review to introspect on its policies and choice of writers.

  62. Dear Carl,

    You are not the first Hindu I have encountered who seems to shun the exotic brand of Hindu scriptures. I have no problem with your personal decision. But that in of itself is no justification to discard a huge category of Hindu scriptures & contents extolling sex varieties. Incidentally spirituality thru vagina is not the exclusive domain of Hinduism only. It is of interest to me because of my love-affair with Hinduism. I hope you wont fault me for this.

    1. Surely you’re not suggesting there is something wrong with spirituality through the vagina?

      That is something Hindus should be very proud of in this age of women’s empowerment and the reclamation of sacred sexuality.

  63. GB –

    When did I ever say I “shunned” anything. I said quite the contrary, if you scroll up a couple of posts.

    But there is a difference between what Harmeet is doing and a truly comprehensive understanding and exploration of all knowledge, material and spiritual. What Harmeet is doing is to take non-dharmic categories and try to bracket seamless dharmic concepts into them, and then launch a moralistic broadside. That is a scurrilous agenda, or he simply didn’t “get it”.

    Dharma (ethics), Artha (political economy), Kama (sensual and intellectual pleasure) and moksha (liberation) are the 4 purusharthas (human objectives) of humans as acknowledged in Hinduism. After taking one’s legitimate share of these 4, one can then move deeper into true spirituality and service of the Lord, in which there are no artificial categories and high/low. If you truly are trying to understand it that way, then all the best. However, beware that without understanding sankhya and yoga, one could go seriously astray with certain “exotic” tantras, as many Western dilletantes do. There i nothing Hindu about their illegitimate experimentation.

  64. Dear Carl,

    If you have not shunned the exotic Hindu scriptures, then that is your choice. Let me move on to the yoga scriptures. There are roughly 700 of them. How would you classify them based on the purported three gunas? Thanks

  65. Carl,

    Is the sexual crime of bestiality against animals present in the Hindu Scriptures also a healthy psycho-dynamic force in the Hindu id validated by the great Hindu Scientists?

  66. Let us assume for a hypothetical second what Harmeet wants us to believe that Hindu scriptures develop a psychodynamic spirituality in which rape and bestiality are a part and parcel..

    Why in the US where all kinds have immigrated Hindu’s have one of the least convicted rates of crime..

    http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

    Why when in the Bhagavad Gita Krishna endorses Arjuna to fight for Dharma..Krishna bhakts have the least violent record.

    The message emperically demonstrates that Hindu’s don’t derive into their psyche in general what Harmeet would like us to believe it does.

    All Abrahmic, Scientologist faiths, atheists have higher proportion of convicted crime rates than the Hindu.

    Thus one has to take Harmeets conclusions with a massive pinch of salt and focus on his single minded hatred of Dharmic scripture..

    Eurasia Review is doing it’s own reputation no good by indulging the likes of Harmeet on it’s panels.

  67. Dear Harb ji,

    Allow me to intrude here. You raised intriguing points above especially with minority overseas-based Hindu modal behavior against the backdrop of overall picture of criminality.

    Are you suggesting these overseas Hindus don’t prescribe to the ugly details jotted in the Hindu scriptures?

  68. GB,
    Brilliant! So statistics around crime and behavioral psychology seem to indicate that most Hindus in India and overseas don’t take this part of the Upanishad seriously. By the same logic, it look like certain non-Hindu Punjabis, Pakistanis, and Middle Easterners do take this Upanishad very seriously, because they show much higher rates of domestic violence, honour killings and rape.

    — OR —

    One can admit that the Upanishad is surveying the potentially aberrative commands of human psychological archetypes and the related flow-options of worth and self-admiration. Since these are universal, they tend to manifest in cultures that have darker animalistic propensities, such as the Middle East and north-western parts of the Subcontinent, while most of Hindu India doesn’t seem to be so affected.

    Speaking of “seriousness” – Hindus believe Veda must be approached through a sacred sense of “gravitas”, which is the Latin cognate for Sanskrit word “gurutva” (guru – heavy with understanding). :) The ‘confidentiality’ of Veda is defined as “that which does not reveal itself except by the hearer’s qualification”. Its not about something kept hidden away, its about the seriousness and intellectual elevation of the reader. Gurutva leads to Veda. If you want to abuse Veda, then you are cutting the branch on which you sit, because all traditions based on Guru lead only to good old Veda.

  69. Dear Carl,

    Thanks for your above comment. You still haven’t answered my question on the yoga scriptures and those purported three gunas.

  70. From your comment:

    “””Are you suggesting these overseas Hindus don’t prescribe to the ugly details jotted in the Hindu scriptures?”””

    As i mentioned before if i assume your assumptions that Sanskrit/ Hindu/ Dharmic texts are ugly meaning advocating rape, violence..should we not be seeing large scale evidence of terror on part of it’s followers?

    We don’t. Not in the US, not in EU nor Japan or Asia. Chinese travelers to India in the 5th and 7th centuries recorded there was no crime, houses were not locked and no capital punishment. Should we not have had evidence of the depravity of dharmic society then and now too..?

    The only problem in depravity i find is with those that come close to excluvist ideologies in their approach to our heritage texts. Hindu’s have not gone about blowing planes in their hatred..Khalistani’s and Muslims have.

    Common strand was their hatred of Hindu’s. Plenty ideological propaganda of the type we are witnessing on this board was evident.

  71. Dear Harb,

    I am glad you toned down somewhat compared to your earlier deleted hate comment. Let me make it clear to you: There is no mean-spirited “ideological propaganda” against you or against your purported ideology. We are simply discussing issues of Hinduism that might be difficult for you.
    Moving on to the issue of criminality under discussion, I thank you for your positive views on overseas settled minority Hindus. Then what about where Hindus are in majority: India. Tell me why so many Hindus are bent upon committing crimes that you yourself would not approve of? Are these India-based majority Hindus different in substance from those based overseas?

  72. The Hindu reaction is typical. If a non-Hindu raises questions about sanctified cruelty against humanity in Hindu scriptures, the question is attacked by appealing to the sacredness of the crime and is followed by insult to human intelligence through self-concocted pseudoscience of Hindu tradition portrayed with ideological gymnastics and a ting of reverential twaddle as a play of words.

    And, if that doesn’t work either the non-Hindu is harassed and vilified as a testament to the intolerant criminality in Hinduism.

    Talk about Hindus in not taking their scriptures seriously?

    Sex Slaves can still be found in India.
    One of the elaborate and biggest evidence of rape lays in sanctified sexual slavery of women in Hinduism under the tradition of Devadasi that is still practiced in which lower-caste Untouchable under-age girls are sold and ritualized as sex slaves of upper-caste Hindus.

    Organized mass rape against lower lower-caste Untouchables, Sikhs, Aborigines, Christians and Muslim women has been used as revenge and retaliation throughout.

    In fact, Rape is very common practice of terrorization by Police and Armed Forces in India.

    It was Brigadier R.P. Sinha of Indian Army, once threatened to rape a rural Sikh village to “breed a race through his soldiers that will be loyal to India” (Documented; Politics of Genocide, by IS Jaijee).

    This rape policy aptly fit into the criminality of the Upnishaad which teaches a man that achievement of glory lies through raping a woman.

    Mass rape of lower-castes by Police and upper-caste militia like Ranveer Sena is unparalleled from rest of the civilized world. Is there any civilized part of the world where mass rapes are perpetrated by Armed Forces and Police against innocent civilians?

    India’s Untouchable and Aborigines women who face upper-caste violence are not even protected within by Indian laws to get the criminals prosecuted for hate crimes since rape is not considered a hate crime by India.

    Rape along with other crimes against women sanctified in the Hindu scriptures is a tip of the ice-berg which is being shamelessly sanctified as heritage by caste Hindus.

    1. “One of the elaborate and biggest evidence of rape lays in sanctified sexual slavery of women in Hinduism under the tradition of Devadasi that is still practiced in which lower-caste Untouchable under-age girls are sold and ritualized as sex slaves of upper-caste Hindus.”

      Could you give a Hindu scriptural reference “sanctifying” prostitution?

      The Devdasi tradition is one of training girls to dance before the archa-vigraha in the mandir. I am not aware that the tradition demanded dancers only from the “untouchable” section of society, and would appreciate a scriptural reference for that as well. If they were/are “untouchable” then why would they be given the honor an oppurtunity to perform in the mandir?

      Hindus and Buddhists still have a tradition of some young sons being sent to an ashram/mandir to live and be trained in brahmachari life there. The Devdasi tradition was similar, but for girls. I think in Puri, Orissa you might still find some professionally trained temple dancers, of both genders.

      If some of them have been exploited into prostitution or chosen of their own volition to take up sex work, that is another matter, and something quite different from the Devdasi tradition.

      Speaking of choosing to work as a sex professional you might want to check out this write-up on Kama of Kingston;

      http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/06/12/the_blogging_de/

      Her website and blog appear to have gone off line, but she wrote there;

      “Who am I? Please call me Kama.

      “I was dedicated as a child to a number Of Hindu deities of whom the Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva and the Lady Kama are my personal Gods. I practice a form of the Hindu Devadasi religion so giving pleasure to men is a part of my religious faith, please visit my personal shrine to learn more about why I want to serve you in this way.

      “I am now in my early twenties and I am studying in London. I am very friendly and affectionate. I have a beautiful smile and I like to laugh. I also enjoy meeting new people.

      “Like all Devadasi I am a capable traditional Singer and Dancer, although I would consider singing to be my stronger talent. I do not have room in my apartment to offer dance displays but during a 2hr Tantric appointment I can include various chants and songs on
      request.

      “I am a size 6 or small 8, with firm slender build. My skin is soft and a brown sugar colour. I have small firm breasts and I am always clean shaven. I do not smoke or drink and I do not use drugs. I enjoy being with men. I am also a naturally submissive person so I enjoy being with men who like to be served.

      “My greatest wish is to ensure the complete pleasure of the men with who I meet by being the perfect compliment to their lingam, both physically and spiritually. The experience of Tantric ecstasy can bring increased health and vigour to the mind, body and soul of any man who needs spiritual or physical renewal.

      “Please note I now have a new Shiva and Parvati deity in my guest room and occasionally I will spend a few brief moments in mediation before some appointments begin, I would therefore appreciate your quiet understanding of my brief devotions.”

      Another sex worker who appreciates her site wrote:

      “I confess, the patriarchal slant she takes on sacred sex work makes me very uncomfortable- tho’ I’m not at all sure this represents her complete worldview, and her web journal sounds distinctly more progressive. It is inspiring beyond words to see someone practicing a temple priestess tradition which has *not* been broken by persecution. The devadasi temples in India were only outlawed in 1988, and of course have not dissapeared overnight. Prostitution (but not the activities surrounding prostitution) is technically legal in the UK.”

      (I would provide the link to the comment but its an escort site so may or may not be appreciated by moderators)

      So this “Kama”, a lady of entrepreneurial spirit has chosen to flip the script and promote “devdasi-ism” (which she interprets as “joyfully pleasuring men in the erotic arts”) as a noble lost art that is being maligned and persecuted by people not in the know.

      So on the one hand while some people call it “religious prostituion” that exploits “untouchables” and must be stopped, on the other hand she says its ancient sex work and sex work is nothing to be ashamed of, but rather a noble service to humanity!

      The truth lay somewhere in the middle.

      Devdasi is a dancing tradition. Full stop.

      That some dancers may have been, or still may be, exploited is a seperate issue from the tradition of temple dance itself.

      That some dancers may of their own volition take up sex work is also a separate issue.

      But to call the tradition “religious prostitution” is ridiculous when there is nothing religious about prostitution, whether it be forced or by choice.

  73. Can somebody provide the original Sanskrit texts for the following;

    7. If she do not give in 2, let him, as he likes, bribe her (with presents). And if she then do not give in, let him, as he likes, beat her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her 3, saying: ‘With manly strength and glory I take away thy glory,’–and thus she becomes unglorious

    Without the original Sanskrit text (Devanagari script), and without knowing Sanskrit, we cannot know what it means. If someone could provide it, I can have it translated.

    In 2, 3, 4 and 5 above the 7th that Harmeet qoutes from there is Sanskrit-English transliteration on the site …
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15097.htm#fn_634

    Are these meant to be transliterations of the proceeding numbered verses?

  74. Harb –

    Whom are you trying to convince? Not GB or Harmeet I hope. Their mutual love affair is not of this world, and being a rapist Hindu you cannot possibly understand it. For instance, they say they are Khalistanis, but spiritually blind and deviant people like you think that a country called Khalistan has never existed and doesn’t exist. It does – in their exalted and morally pure imaginations, which was purified even more under British tutelage.

    We rapist Hindus have always said that truth indicated in our scriptures is subtle (sookshma) not physical, but these lovers of truth know that we are lying, because, being rapists, its not a stretch to say that we are also liars.

    We rapists believe that every part of the scripture must be understood in the context of the “whole”. But GB and Harmeet always knew that what we cunning rapists actually mean is “hole”. Its obvious, since we are perverted killers, we will play around with words designed to confuse innocent truth-seekers. We rape language itself.

    We rapist Hindus talk about the gradations and hermeneutic levels through which scripture is to be interpreted, and point to the vast corpus of literature explaining EXACTLY how to do so. But these intelligent Khalistanis have thoroughly exposed the fact that this whole corpus of Hindu literature is a cunning smokescreen used by high caste Hindus to keep their sex exploitation rings away from the scrutiny of the world.

    We rapist Hindus have always shunned those perverts in our society who interpreted such texts in a gross physical way, we banished them to forests and called them outcasts. But GB and Harmeet know that we did it not because Hinduism thinks any differently, but precisely because those deviants outed our dirty little secrets.

    In this same Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, for the first 5 parts, the rapist sages have spoken of meditation in deep forests, and in the 6th there is this one verse. GB and Harmeet have realized that this verse is the key to the whole Upanishad, and all that meditation in forests is about rape, kama-sutra, and other such things.

    Harb, you should concede that rape is the essence of Hinduism. Stop lying, and either you must begin to rape your wife in order to be a true Hindu, or you must declare yourself non-Hindu. It is perfectly possible to continue an “intense interest” and a “love-affair” with Hinduism from a non-Hindu perspective. GB ji can guide you in that respect. Please be humble and submit. Insha’Allah one day the evil Hindu India will be further broken up and Khalistan will be formed, spreading love and light, not rape and darkness. Right now the statistics of rape, domestic violence and drug abuse are higher in Indian Punjab than the rest of the country only because of the shadow of Hindu India. Rapist Indian scientists engineered a green revolution in that state in order to seduce and delude the morally superior people there with economic prosperity and the freedom to rape their wives.

  75. We are willing to let this debate go on as long as you like, but the tone does need to be more civil. IF the tone of the commentators isn’t made such, then this comment string will be blocked and ended. Please use this as a way for constructive debate, and leave the sarcasm and personal attacks aside.

    Obviously this article has touched nerves, and we can understand that. However, it is supposed that we are all adults – and as such we should conduct ourselves as such.

    This is a warning.

  76. Eurasia Review:

    What we have been trying to attempt to explain is that Shruti of what is actually Sanatana Dharma and this Upanishad which is one of many deals with transcendaltism. Entire branches of Philospohy and thought have sprung from this Upanishad. This is not about RAPE!

    Do a favor and read this Upanishad. It’s translations are available. Read through YORSELF..the First 5 chapters and then you will realize the mischief that Harmeet your reviewer and GB Singh are trying out.

    Remember also what you will read is 5000 Years old and more. These are amongst the most esoteric and sacred texts that humanity has known.

    Do that once and then look at the article and message board. Take your time please.

  77. oṁ asato mā sad gamaya
    tamaso mā jyotir gamaya
    mṛtyor mā amṛtaṁ gamaya
    oṁ śānti śānti śāntiḥ – bṛhadāraṇyaka upaniṣad 1.3.28

    Translation:

    Lead Us From the Unreal To the Real,
    Lead Us From Darkness To Light,
    Lead Us From Death To Immortality,
    Let There Be Peace Peace Peace. – Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.3.28.

    According as one acts, so does he become.
    One becomes virtuous by virtuous action,
    bad by bad action. – Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5[4]

  78. Dear Harb & Carl,

    I noticed both of you have stopped answering my questions. Why?

    It might remind you that these questions of mine stemmed from your own earlier statements.

  79. Dear Eurasia Review –

    I believe the comment thread thus far has served its purpose. The intent and agenda of the writers you have hired has been drawn out for public view. This thread has been posted on several Indian fora already to increase awareness about Eurasia Review and its selection of writers.

    If you notice, all attempts have been made to take the discussion to a higher level – the level that the Upanishad itself comes from. Yet, your writers have only sought to needle and persist in deliberate distortion – of Upanishad as well as Freud and the modern philosophy of science. If they are sore about the problems a couple of decades ago on the Khalistan issue, then they should be honest enough and grown-up enough to discuss that directly. Instead, they have splayed themselves all over the place, trying to attack Hinduism itself, which is the tree from which Sikhism is a branch. This childishness is now clear from Harmeets last post. So the ball is now in your court. India’s readership is watching for your response. This is also a warning.

  80. Dear Carl,

    I like your diversionary tactics! To my best recollections, I haven’t talked about any upanishad here. And you still are not answering my question.
    Since Harb posted two beautiful verses from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, is it possible for you gentlemen stay on board so that we can delve a bit deeper into those two verses?

  81. Dear GB,

    The only reason I am delaying further answers to your sincere questions is to increase your longing for the truth to madness pitch! I notice its working. :) You see, love increases in separation. Its called ‘vipralambha’ in Sanskrit.

  82. Dear Carl,

    You are not delaying but refuses to answer simple questions. Honestly if I were an authentic Hindu I will do the same thing.
    While I am here, I might as well bring it up. Earlier you wrote this: “Why when in the Bhagavad Gita Krishna endorses Arjuna to fight for Dharma..Krishna bhakts have the least violent record.”

    Credit to you for recognizing the violence sprouting out of Bhagavad Gita. Can you tell us as to why Krishna bhakts don’t follow the clearly stated violent dictates of Krishna-the-god?

    1. “Can you tell us as to why Krishna bhakts don’t follow the clearly stated violent dictates of Krishna-the-god?”

      Because Krishna did not tell his all of his bhaktas to engage in violence, that’s why.

      The Bhagavad Gita is a section within the larger Mahabharata which details the atrocities and human rights violations that the Pandavas had to undergo at the hands of Kauravas.

      If you bother to read the book, the Pandavas sought every non-violent means to resolve the conflict peacefully, even up to pleading and begging for mercy.

      Finally, at the very end, when they had exhausted all other means of getting justice, a war was relunctantly declared.

      Krishna’s advice to Arjuna is within the context of these very specific circumstances.

  83. Dear Carl,

    One correction in my above comment. I think it was brother Harb who commented on the Gita.

  84. Rapists are not going to be thinking of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Brahmana 4, Verse 7 when they rape and cite it as justification thereof.

    How many Hindus are even aware of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Brahamana 4, Verse 7?

    To take an obscure verse, and one from a section that has already long ago been declared interpolated by authentic commentators like Adi Shankaracharya and others, and claim that this somehow proves that rape is justified in Hinduism is the quintessence of anti-intellectualism and just plain sloppiness of thought.

    Come on now, you can do better than that.

    Regarding texts being categorized according to the 3 gunas, this is also what is taught in my sampradaya, going back hundreds of years.

    Our sampradaya uses shastric pramaan (evidence) only from the sattvic Puranas and other sattvic shastras.

    That GB Singh is unaware of this, despite being (presumably) Indian, indicates that s/he has not studied shastra under the tutelage of a sampradayik guru.

    Just one more reason why learned sampradayik Hindus should be at the forefront of representing the tradition, and not a masala mix of random Desis.

  85. VH,

    I think you are referring to sixth Adhyaya, 4th Brahmana, verse 7 of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. Please provide an evidence as to its interpolation. In that case what about other total of 27 verses lodged in the 4th Brahmana? Thanks

  86. Brother GB,

    I can feel the intensity of your love increasing. Goodgoodgood.

    To understand why Krishna bhaktas don’t run amock in an orgy of violence when they read the Gita, one can try to open the Gita and read the numerous verses about love and non-violence in it. Or one can just look at Sikhism, since it is a fount of Vishnu-bhakti. Only after generations of persecution and oppression was the command to retaliate using violence issued. Every opportunity was given to the Moslem sultans to establish peace and justice, the gurus approached them in good faith generation after generation, even after they betrayed that trust horribly several times. That was then the final straw, and Guru Gobind Singh ji created the Khalsa. The Gurus knew that the Vedas are always against the hasty violence of adrenalized idiots, unlike other religions that encourage such zealots as “martyrs” and even “saints”. To quote from his letter in Persian to the senile old coot Aurangzeb:

    keh bar sar e toraa qarz e qasm e Qor’aan
    beh gofteh shoma kaar e khoobi resaan!

    “The burdens of Qur’anic oaths are on your head;
    You now ought to fulfill your speeches with works of goodness!”

    be baayad to daanesh parasti koni
    be kaar e shomaa cheereh dasti koni!

    “You should magnify Wisdom at this time (not your legalistic BS),
    Handle the job taken up by you skillfully (visit my place for discussions)”

    chehaa shod ke chon bachegaan koshteh chaar?
    ke baaqi bemaanad ast peycheedeh maar!

    “What all happened that you killed four childlike souls (my sons)?
    For what remains now is a coiled serpent (the Khalsa)!”

    cheh mardi ke akhgar khamooshaan koni?
    ke aatash e damaan ra foroozaan koni!

    “What manliness have you shown by extinguishing a few small sparks (the Sahebzaadas)?
    For you have made the rolling flames more furious!”

    cheh khosh goft Ferdowsi e khosh-zabaan:
    shetaabi bovad kaar e Ahrimanaan!

    “How nicely the sweet-tongued poet Ferdowsi has said:
    That ‘Hasty actions are the work of devils’!”

  87. Dear Carl,

    Thanks for your perceptive comment. My question on B. Gita pertained not on those purported verses on love and nonviolence. It appears Harb knows of those pro-violence verses lodged inside the pages of B. Gita. Can you comment on those verses promoting violence right, left, and center? And then why these Krishna Bhakats ignore those verses in favor of others as commented earlier by Harb? Thanks Bhai.

  88. Dear GB,

    A lot of your confusions would be resolved if you took a process-oriented view to spirituality. Dharmik religions are process-oriented. Semitic religions are command-oriented. So in a Semitic scripture, a semitic-headed person will read a verse and then go do it, like its a rule for which you get brownie points. But in a Dharmik scripture, a dharma-headed person will see a verse and try to understand the qualification and context of that verse, and determine whether he is fit to execute it, and at what ontological level it is to be executed.

    So you could clear your confusions by trying out a new dharmik hat. Perhaps that is what Rajeev Malhotra’s book was about in the first place. So we’re back to square one. Harmeet ji wrote a dimwit review, because he is upset about the failure of the Khalistan project. As the joke goes, the only Khali-sthan exists between his ears.

    Could you please post those verses from the Bhagavad Gita which promote violence “left, right and center”? Actually the “left” 6 chapters come under the Karma section of the Gita, the “right” 6 chapters are the Gyaana section, and the “center” 6 chapters are the Bhakti section. And the key “tree of values” is in the “center” of the Gita, and goes like this: chapter 13:8-12 –

    “Humility; pridelessness; NONVIOLENCE; tolerance; simplicity; approaching a bona fide spiritual master; cleanliness; steadiness; self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification; absence of false ego; the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; detachment; freedom from entanglement with children, wife, home and the rest; even-mindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me; aspiring to live in a solitary place; detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization; and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth — all these I declare to be knowledge, and besides this whatever there may be is ignorance.”

    Choose knowledge GB, not ignorance. One can waste lifetimes having love affairs with ignorance.

  89. Dear Carl,

    Have you read the Bhagavad-Gita? If yes, are you saying in clear terms that there is no violence being promoted by Krishna in B. Gita?

  90. Dear GB,

    Are you saying that violence is being “promoted” in the Bhagavad Gita? Let me know.

    Please note, Hindus are not allergic to violence. We do have a warrior tradition. We produced Sikhs, Marathas, Rajputs, etc. But it has always been subordinate to the Brahminical tradition. At no point in Hinduism’s or Buddhism’s long history has warrior tradition been able to override the Brahminical on a scriptural basis. But we see that in some deracinated offshoots that cut themselves off from Veda, the “piri” gets lost in the ambition for “miri”, don’t you think?

  91. VH,

    I never said Devadasi tradition is religious prostitution. I said Devadasi tradition is sexual slavery because this tradition is nor based on trade of sex.

    A Marathi saying confirms the sexual enslavement of these women: ‘Devadasi devachi
    bayako, sarya gavachi’: ‘Servant of god, but wife of the town’.

    Devadasi exits with similar other Hindu traditions of sexual slavery like Jogini and Mahtamma.

    The sexual slaves in these religious practices are specifically Untouchable (Dalit) women forced into sanctified sexual enjoyment of upper-caste Hindu men at the Hindu temples and at an early teenage years.

    This tradition of sacred rape of underage girls and of women under the name of spirituality is influenced from Hindu Scriptures like Brhadarankyaka Upanishad Upnishaad that promote violence and exploitation against women.

    Readers may find an elaborate research on this institutionalized sexual slavery of women in Hinduism here:

    http://www.antislavery.org/includes/documents/cm_docs/2009/w/women_in_ritual_slavery2007.pdf

    1. “The sexual slaves in these religious practices are specifically Untouchable (Dalit) women forced into sanctified sexual enjoyment of upper-caste Hindu men at the Hindu temples and at an early teenage years.”

      Untouchables are now allowed into brahmin dominated mandirs to become devadasis? Untouchables are presumably not allowed in such mandirs and now they have even become devadasis (servants of the God!) within mandirs itself?

      When did this shift happen?

  92. What is the original sanskrit of the verse in question? I can translate it for everyone if that is provided.

  93. Dear Harmeet,

    Anyone can also read any book and be inspired to start a prostitution ring tomorrow. The million dollar question is – does any traditional Hindu scriptural source or commentary recommend or even condone such a practice?

    The answer is no.

    In fact, the commentary and context of this verse of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad that exist clearly and explicitly detail something totally different, a psycho-spiritual meaning.

    But for your own reasons – being sore at the failure of the Khalistan project – you choose to ignore the traditional Hindu scriptures and commentaries, and project the practices of human criminals onto Veda.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, but thou read black where I read white.” – William Blake

    “Brihadaranyaka” means “Great Forest”. It is obvious that you have missed the forest for the trees!

  94. Dear Carl,

    I am glad you are holding on here though not answering specifically. Just above this comment you wrote: “In fact, the commentary and context of this verse of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad that exist clearly and explicitly detail something totally different, a psycho-spiritual meaning.”
    Which verse are you referring to? Is it the same verse lodged in the sixth Adhyaya, 4th Brahmana of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad?

    On B,Gita, yes violence is promoted in it.

    1. G.B. Singh: “On B,Gita, yes violence is promoted in it.”

      And rightly so. You seemed to have missed my above comment wherein I explained the context;

      The Bhagavad Gita is a section within the larger Mahabharata which details the atrocities and human rights violations that the Pandavas had to undergo at the hands of Kauravas.

      If you bother to read the book, the Pandavas sought every non-violent means to resolve the conflict peacefully, even up to pleading and begging for mercy.

      Finally, at the very end, when they had exhausted all other means of getting justice, a war was relunctantly declared.

      Krishna’s advice to Arjuna is within the context of these very specific circumstances.

  95. Carl,

    This is not a prostitution ring. Let me therefore, remind you what this is:

    Little girls and women are made ‘Servant of god, but wife of the town’.

    A prostitution ring is trade however, slavery of Devadasis is endorsed by religion and society. In this practice, one society sexually enslaves and rapes women of another society as sanctimonious practice of religion.

    The million dollar question is: What has influenced the Hindus to create ‘Servant of god, but wife of the town’?

    Now rape in Hindu Scriptures, according to you is for “psycho-spiritual” meaning.

    The question that arises is – is Rape a spiritual act?

  96. GB darling,

    Yup, the BrAr. Up verse. The whole chapter does not exist in several commentaries, and in the ones it exists in it is interpreted as pure psychodynamics.

    I have already mentioned this fact before, but because Harmeet is sore about the failure of the Khalistani ideology, he has been ignoring all such information. He prefers to sit in America and disseminate leftist anti-Hindu agitprop in the fond hope of embarrassing and eventually breaking India. In fact, the same author Rajiv Malhotra has written another book called “Breaking India”, and it is obvious that this book is the one that has really gotten Harmeet’s knickers in a twist. But unable to tackle that book directly (since it exposes all the tactics being used), he is trying to bring down the author via this other book. Unfortunately even here he has had to come up with his own version of Freud and even current trends in the philosophy of science in order to cover his ignorance. He has tried to use confident bullshitting to cover his ignorance and hate, hoping that other readers will not cross-check.

    And no, the B.Gita does not “promote” violence. It promotes courage to stand up in the face of violent aggression and fanaticism. That’s how we Indians have always defeated such violent and fanatic ideologies, either by appealing to man’s higher sense (as Mahatma Gandhi did with the British), or by using the “stick and hand” treatment, such as we do with Islamism, Leftist guerillas, and other small-time terrorists like Harmeet’s Khalistanis.

    As I indicated to Eurasia Review, the purpose of this thread has been served as far as I am concerned. However, I am enjoying our loving exchange here.

  97. Dear Harmeet,

    Everyone is still waiting for you to produce ONE traditional Hindu textual source that interprets that particular Upanishadic verse as rape, prostitution or slavery (whichever one you choose).

    Instead you keep repeating more and more leftist agitprop like a broken record. Please rest assured that we all agree with how evil those practices were. They no longer exist, they have been obliterated by the enlightened laws and forces of modern India (just like we obliterated misguided terror outfits like the “Khalistanis”).

  98. “I never said Devadasi tradition is religious prostitution.”

    You used the word “sanctified”. Sanctified by whom?

    And you said, “A prostitution ring is trade however, slavery of Devadasis is endorsed by religion and society.”

    Which specific religious sampradaya is endorsing this slavery?

    “I said Devadasi tradition is sexual slavery because this tradition is nor based on trade of sex.”

    Devadasi is a dance tradition. FULL STOP.
    If people are exploiting it for sex, slavery or money, such as “The Blogging Devadasi, Kama of Kingston” linked to above, that is a separate issue, and one that must be addressed through India’s legal system, or at least social outreach.

    You’ve continued to say that one English translation of an obscure verse found online from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad for which we have STILL not been able to acquire the original Devanagari script for, is used as justification of rape in Hindu India.

    Yet you have failed to give an example of any rapist qouting that verse, either in a court of law as his defense, or at ground level in the streets or popular media, as justification for committing the crime of rape.

    You have also failed to inform us how popular the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad is, with either Sampradayik Hindus or your run-o-the-mill masala Hindus.

    I know that Bhagavad Gita is very popular with both groups, but Brihadaranayaka Upanishad? As a Samprayak Hindu this is the first time I’m seeing it being discussed.
    At the very least I’d like to know which specific Sampradayas use it as pramaan?

    Likewise, if you are saying that Hindus use B.U. as justification for rape, then some evidence is needed.

    1. And likewise if someone could explain how an “untouchable” can become a dancing devadasi in a mandir run by brahmins when presumably they are so “untouchable” as to not to be allowed in the mandirs at all!

      Still scratching my head over that one….

  99. Carl said

    “Everyone is still waiting for you to produce ONE traditional Hindu textual source that interprets that particular Upanishadic verse as rape, prostitution or slavery (whichever one you choose)”.

    That the statement quoted above is a statement of rape is self-evident. Forcing a woman by beating her for sex is rape.

    Now, the assertion that I need to prove if this act is acknowledged as rape by Hindu texts to be called as rape is ludicrous.

    This is almost like saying that in order to prove that Nazis committed genocide I need prove if Nazis ever accepted their acts as genocide.

    Of course not! Hindu texts don’t consider it rape at all. It is a “psycho-spiritual” act in Hindu texts.

    Carl said:
    “Please rest assured that we all agree with how evil those practices were. They no longer exist, they have been obliterated by the enlightened laws and forces of modern India”

    So, If all castes Hindus truly agree that sanctified rape of lower-caste children and women in the institution of Devadasis, Jogini and Mahttmaa is evil then why caste Hindus still practicing it? And, why are caste Hindus like you denying the existence of these practices as pointed in the evidence above?

    Now, to deny of the evidenced existence of this ritualized rape of women still practiced by upper-caste Hindu men is cunningly cruel.
    This is hypocrisy and deceit but I am not surprised to see this reaction.

    VH said:
    “Devadasi is a dance tradition. FULL STOP”.

    It is quite chilling that you call this tradition a dance tradition in which little girls are taken away from their parents, deprived of family in a ritual marriage with goddess for rest of their lives. What woman deserves that?

    VH said:

    “You’ve continued to say that one English translation of an obscure verse found online from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad for which we have STILL not been able to acquire the original Devanagari script for, is used as justification of rape in Hindu India.”

    Let me quote readers the beginning of 6th Adhya and 4th Brahmana that contains the rape verse to make sure that this rape verse is not obscure in itself as pointed by others.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15098.htm

    1. Verily, of created things here earth is the essence; of earth, water; of water, plants; of plants, flowers; of flowers, fruits; of fruits, man (purusa); of man, semen

    2. Prajâpati (‘Lord of creatures’) bethought himself: ‘Come, let me provide him a firm basis!’ So he created woman. When he had created her, he revered her below.–Therefore one should revere woman below.–He stretched out for himself that stone which projects. With that he impregnated her.

    3. Her lap is a sacrificial altar; her hairs, the sacrificial grass; her skin, the soma-press. The two labia of the vulva are the fire in the middle. Verily, indeed, as great as is the world of him who sacrifices with the Vâjapeya (‘Strength-libation’) sacrifice, so great is the world of him who practises sexual intercourse, knowing this; he turns the good deeds of women to himself. But he who practises sexual intercourse without knowing this-women turn his good deeds unto themselves.

    4. This, verily, indeed, it was that Uddâlaka Âruṅi knew when he said:–
    This, verily, indeed, it was that Nâka Maudgalya knew when he said:–
    This, verily, indeed, it was that Kumârahârita knew when he said: ‘Many mortal men, Brahmans by descent, go forth from this world, impotent and devoid of merit, namely those who practise sexual intercourse without knowing this.’
    [If] even this much 1 semen is spilled, whether of one asleep or of one awake, [5] then he should touch it, or [without touching] repeat:–

    ‘What semen has of mine to earth been spilt now,
    Whate’er to herb has flowed, whate’er to water–
    This very semen I reclaim!
    Again to me let vigor come!
    Again, my strength; again, my glow!
    Again the altars and the fire
    Be found in their accustomed place!’

    Having spoken thus, he should take it with ring-finger and thumb, and rub it on between his breasts or his eye-brows.

    6. Now, if one should see himself in water, he should recite over it the formula: ‘In me be vigor, power, beauty, wealth, merit!’
    This, verily, indeed, is loveliness among women: when she has removed the clothes of her impurity. Therefore when she has removed the clothes of her impurity and is beautiful, one should approach and invite her.

    7. If she should not grant him his desire, he should bribe her. If she still does not grant him his desire, he should hit her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her, saying: ‘With power, with glory I take away your glory!’ Thus she becomes inglorious.

    8. If she should yield to him, he says: ‘With power, with glory I give you glory!’ Thus they two become glorious.

    The second translation read as:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/sbe15097.htm

    1. The earth is the essence of all these things, water is the essence of the earth, plants of water, flowers of plants, fruits of flowers, man of fruits, seed of man.

    2. And Pragâpati thought, let me make an abode for him, and he created a woman (Satarûpâ).

    According to both the translations, the readers will find the women and her vagina is specifically created by Lord Prajapati to provide the preservation and continuity of Man’s semen and a man therefore must rape a woman to preserve the most auspicious thing in him i.e. the semen- the seed, the soma.

    In fact, as one can note in this whole chapter that rape is sanctified as spiritual ceremony of Hindu procreation. This verse is Hindu declaration of sexual enslavement of women.

    It explains the “psycho-spiritual” sexual motivation of upper-caste men towards the enslavement of lower-caste girls and women as a spiritual practice of preserving their semen.

  100. Eurasia Review Editors,

    it is indeed disappointing that you have given voice to a rabid Hindu-hater like Harmeet Singh on your esteemed portal.

    He possesses only a very superficial impression of Hindu scriptures, and an unmistakable agenda to deride the religion of millions.

    Moreover he simply lacks the intellectual caliber to appreciate or analyze a work of depth such as Being Different. He lets his sarcasm and hatred agenda get the better of his analysis.

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