Bulgarian Anti-Macedonian Bigotry From An EU MP – OpEd

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By OMO Ilinden PIRIN, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International

A statement denying the existence of minorities in Bulgaria was made last week to the Macedonian media by an MP of the European Parliament, Andrej Kovachev – a member of the ruling party in Bulgaria (GERB). Similar views have also been recently expressed by Bulgaria’s Foreign Minister, Mladenov. Such an attitude raises the question of how sincere Bulgaria was in ratifying the Framework Convention for National Minorities and aids in explaining its practical non-application in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria
Bulgaria

The claim that there are no minorities in Bulgaria can be considered to be an expression of fascism, a yearning for a “pure nation”, something which the European Union should condemn as scandalous and unacceptable. Moreover the specific denial by Mr. Kovachev of the existence of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria is not only a flagrant lie but also a severe act of discrimination.

We, of course, support the right of every individual to freely determine her/his identity and we condemn any sort of discrimination on that basis wherever it may occur. This also applies to Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia. However, the artificial conversion by Mr. Kovachev, of cases to do with criminal conduct in Macedonia, into cases of “ethnic discrimination” cannot be described as anything other than a conscious and deliberate policy of provocation – a childish attempt to vilify Macedonians and to poison relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia. It also serves as a hindrance to European stability and cooperation in general.

Before it places conditions on others, Bulgaria itself would do well to satisfy those same conditions. The recognition of and according of rights to minorities, including the Macedonian minority, as well as making serious efforts to end hate speech, are criteria which Bulgaria has still not satisfied.

 

The opinions expressed are the authors’ own

192 thoughts on “Bulgarian Anti-Macedonian Bigotry From An EU MP – OpEd

  • August 14, 2012 at 2:13 pm
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    Isn’t the author of this article the same organization that said there are no Bulgarians in Bulgaria, just Gypsies and Turks? Hypocricy knows no bounds with these delusional Skopje bigots

    • August 14, 2012 at 4:12 pm
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      The answer is no, That was Todor Petkov of the non governmental organisation The World Macedonian Congress who wrote what some saw as an inflammatory, misguided response to the state sponsored bigotry. The three organisations who contributed to this article are OMO Ilinden PIRIN (a political party), the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International. One of their priorities is the support and defence of human rights ‘We, of course, support the right of every individual to freely determine her/his identity and we condemn any sort of discrimination on that basis wherever it may occur’. OMO Ilinden PIRIN has suffered persecution from the Bulgarian Constitutional Court. In 2000 the European Court of Human Rights condemned Bulgaria because of violations of the OMO Ilinden–Pirin’s freedom of organising meetings. The court stated that Bulgaria had violated Act 11 from the European Convention of Human Rights. So no this article isn’t hypocritical or delusional, its a piece highlighting the ethnic discrimination and specific denial of a community within what is supposed to be a modern, free, European democracy.

      • August 15, 2012 at 11:32 pm
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        @frosty

        Sorry. Freedom and right to identity does include identity theft. That’s a crime.

  • August 14, 2012 at 7:44 pm
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    Skopjeans fail to understand a very simple concept about identity. You have every right to identify yourself as Macedonian, but identification requires that others recognize you as such. It’s a two way process. Given the history and propaganda in your country, it is perfectly within any reasonable persons right to say you are not ethnically Macedonian. If you now stand up and demand that everyone regognize you as German, the same would apply. You have every right to do so,but don’t expect others to simply accept what you say.

    • August 14, 2012 at 9:28 pm
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      Actually, you are wrong. An ethnicity is a group of people who have the same feelings about who they are and share the same language, beliefs, customs and folklore. Also, the international community has and will continue to recognize Macedonians as an ethnic group, only Greece and Bulgaria do not because they do not want to explain what they did to Macedonians since dividing Macedonia in 1913, only the Serbians have apologized for their actions thus far. The Greeks don’t realize time is on the Macedonian side, with time more and more nations understand the unilateral “name issue” is simply to cover up the Macedonians minority in Greece and the abuse the Macedonians take by the Greek government.

      • August 14, 2012 at 10:14 pm
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        @Bill – Your belief that “Macedonia” was “divided in 1913” is a popular myth amongst both you and your apologists. What was divided in 1913 was OTTOMAN territories dear.. not some non-existent “Macedonian” state. In addition FYROM nationalists (and your Greek-hating apologists) constantly confuse your modern nomenclature with ancient. Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia (i.e. the ancient Hellenic kingdom) is ENTIRELY in Greece. FYROM is situated in a region called “Paeonia” in antiquty)

        As for “recognition”.. the very fact your long time patronizing apologists now dishonestly pretend not to notice (or downplay) your sudden identity change into descededents of “ancient Macedonians” and irredentist rhetoric (which you yourself participate in)… is a testimonal to their prejudices again Greeks. (presumably an attempt to cover up their shame)

        “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

        ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

        “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

        ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

        etc..

        • August 15, 2012 at 1:51 am
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          You are ignorant to say the least.You don’t even know history judging from your response.
          Read some history that is unbiased.
          The Ottoman Empire called you the Yunanista(not Greece).
          I will quote an article once again to proove you are totally wrong.
          “US wanted Macedonia independent back in 1783.
          ……………………………………….. “The project of setting at liberty the whole country of ancient Greece,Macedonia and Illyricum,and erecting independent Republics in those famous seats,however solendid it may appear in speculation,is not likely to be seriously entertained by the two Empires,because it is impracticable.The Greeks of this day,although they are said to have imagination and ingenuity,are corrupted in their morals to such a degree,as to be a faithless,perfidious race,destitute of courage,as well as of those principles of honor and virtue,without which nations can have no confidence in one another,nor be trusted by others.Unfortunatly for some Balkan nations(including Macedonia),it was the French,Prussians(Germany) who decided who gets independence.
          The US president was well aware the French and Germans were pushing their own agendas on the Balkans”.
          Adams then goes on to describe the Greeks as people…230 years later they are still described in the same way,”corrupted in their morals to such a degree,as to be faithless,perfidious race,destitute of courage…”
          Your comments fit the description of Adams remarks.That’s who you are!!
          I am proud Macedonian,my forfathers were Macedonians,so was Alexander the Great,and there is nothing you can change my dear fellow.
          As some commentators say,you identify yourself as you feel,you speak the same language,same culture,even same DNA.
          If you don’t know about 1913 when Greece occupied Aegean Macedonia,Epirus and Crite,I can only asume,you are an uneducated,ignorant person!!
          Worth mentioning,when Macedonia existed Bulgaria was not even on a map,ancient or otherwise.B.Dimitrov can’t even make-up his mind as to,from where the Bulgars came to this area.Once he said they came from Volga,next from Bahtria,and recently he claims from Persia(Iran).That’s the father of Bulgarian history!

          • August 15, 2012 at 11:02 pm
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            @peter the evader.

            I would note you completely evaded answering again. Instead you responded with out-of-context references that attempt to confuse people living in Macedonia region and FYROM (i.e. Paeonia) with the fact these people didn’t actually self-identify as “ethnic Macedonians”. The fact is prior to the 20th century the majority of people that lived in what is today FYROM self-identified as Bulgarians. You know. I know it. The historians of the world know it.

            US anthropologist Loring Danforth was a long time supporter of FYROM. He even listed on MHRMI’s website as an expert on this issue (thus can’t be accused of being a Greek propagandist which is the norm for ultra nationalists like). Here is what MHRMI’s own expert and supporter used to say about your “Macedonian” heritage. (which of course fanatics in MHRMI selectively hide and even Danforth himself dishonestly pretends not to notice FYROM’s sudden identity change

            “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.” – US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

          • August 15, 2012 at 11:03 pm
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            @Peter the evader

            So dear… can you answer the question as to what FYROM’s own elected politicians meant when they used to assure everyone…

            “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

            ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

            “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

            ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

  • August 14, 2012 at 7:55 pm
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    I am sure there are a few Skopjeans in Bulgaria. People who came from the country of FYROM. But there are no ethnic Macedonian’s there. History shows a clear manipulation of facts in order to create an ethnicity that doesn’t exist outside being Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian or Serbian from the geographical region of Macedonia. Gruevski not only brings figures like Alexander, Tsar Samuel and Mother Teressa under the banner of one ethnic Macedonian ethnicity, he works hard to deny the ethnicity of Greeks, Bulgarians etc in order to achieve his ludicrous plan. It would be funny, if it nationalism wasn’t so dangerous.

    • August 14, 2012 at 11:32 pm
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      Good point. I tried to keep an open mind around the historical and moral issues but when FYROM (and even some of its patronizing apologists) started to incredibily hypocritically deny our Greek identity while simultaneously pretending not to notice FYROM’s change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians”… and rampant irredentism… I no longer needed historical narratives to observed their manipulations in the here and now. Greek hating bigots the lot of them.

  • August 14, 2012 at 10:07 pm
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    @Frosty

    MHRMI and AMHRC, are also non-government organzations… and they aren’t interested in “human rights”. They are just nationalist manipulators that put “human rights” and “minorities” in their organizations names to fool bleeding heart idiots that hear the words and immediate throw their brain out the window. (much like the communists used to do) Even Hitler originally claimed to be protecting the “oppressed German minorities”. A ruse to justify irredentism against another country.

    Actual human rights organizations look at the human rights of people other than their own nations (thus the “human” part) The extreme anti-Greek and anti-Bulgarian rhetoric and propaganda that comes out of MHRMI and AMHRC shows they are just ultra nationalist fronts.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
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      @Frosty

      Sorry Frosty… saying “human rights” alone is not some sort of moral excuse to support fascist expansionists in FYROM trying to ethnhically eradicate Greeks (in particular Macedonian ones). As for your references to oppressed “Macedonians In Macedonia”… I would point out Hitler also claimed to be only be concerned with alleged oppressed German minorities in neighbouring states… as ruse to justify expansionism.

      Communist dictators Tito and Stalin also used this exact propaganda technique of “oppressed minority” to assure everyone they had no intention to annex Macedonia Greece (to fool clueless easily manipulated with words bleed heart far leftist extremists)

      Shortly thereafter the communists funded a civil war between far leftist Greeks and the rest of the Greek population in an effort to detach Macedonia from Greece. At the time this is why western powers used to claim about your “Macedonian” identity (which your apologists hide to cover up their shame)

      “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)

      As far as your self-proclaimed “human rights” supporters…as ultra nationalist front MHRMI and AMHRC shows… anyone whatsoever can put “human rights” in their organization’s name. This does not actually such people are morally and intellectually infallible. For example. you mention the anti-Hellenic extremist at “Helsinki Greece” but neglect to mention Helsinki’s parent organization went bankrupt due to FRAUD. (including criminal charges)

      As I recall FYROM’s own elected diplomats used to assure Helsinki Greece (and other human rights organizations) you aren’t related to ancient Macedonians in any way or form. Now that the majority of FYROM’s citizens have suddenly done an identity quick change into ‘descendents of ancient Macedonians” and engage in endless irredentist rhetoric (encouraged by the government)… and some of your long time apologists dishonestly pretend they don’t notice or downplay your behavior?

      When your apologists became more concerned with covering up their shame for “recognizing” you..rather apologizing to Greece and supporting our human rights (which I assure you also exist)… they lost every last shred of moral and intellectual high ground on this issue.

      I myself disagree with the unprincipled stance my government took to accept a composite name (due to external political pressure from Greek-hating weasels of the sort that pretend not to notice your behavior). I will never call FYROM Macedonia and never support any Macedonia in FYROM’s name. FYROM ultra nationalists and your evil supporters will have to come kill Greeks like me like the fascists and communists once did.

      “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

      • August 15, 2012 at 8:05 pm
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        There is very little point in addressing posts such as this. The paranoia and hate that seeps from every line reveals that you are obviously someone without empathy. You plainly are a person who does not believe in human rights. There is one thing you got right ‘you aren’t related to ancient Macedonians in any way or form’. Now don’t get excited Anonymous (theres a lot of Anonymous post here), if you’ve read my post in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am simply observing a situation in the continent in which I live. You don’t have to be fearful of an expansionist Macedonia, your borders are safe; the interim accord of 1995 changed the Macedonian constitution to try and quell Greek fears, The Macedonian armed forces (although part of the allies in Afghanistan fighting in part for your freedom) are not a force to be reckoned with, most importantly you have the security of being part of NATO, a pact that the Greek government have illegally refused Macedonia membership of (see the ICJs judgement Dec.11). ‘I will never call FYROM Macedonia’ fine they don’t care, you can call them whatever you like. The important thing is that they know who they are, and they are given the freedom and basic human right to express this. It is a shame that the IHF went bankrupt, an organisation that was awarded the European Human Rights Prize jointly with Lech Wałęsa, certainly deserved better than a fraudulent financial manager. Kiro Gligorov expressed his opinion, you expressed yours, I’ve expressed mine. I won’t deny you your point of view, there is as I previously stated no point in reasoning with people who would rather death than reason and objectivity. But this constant return to the Macedonian identity being uniquely linked to the times of Alexander The Great is nonsense. You go on about Macedonians ‘trying to ethnhically eradicate Greeks’ where is this happening? A quick visit to Skopje city center and you’ll witness statues, which although in my opinion are economic folly, represent Macedonians ancient and modern, Bulgarians, Albanians all peoples that have contributed to the formation of a modern state. I don’t hate Greeks, I welcome all the financial help that you are receiving. I don’t want to see your country go any further down the toilet. I believe in the EU and the common ideals that it promotes, unfortunately successive Greek governments have paradoxically gone against those ideals and refused their neighbours access to economic, security, and cultural benefits that they enjoy. Anyway although I disagree with your furious, somewhat hysterical stance, I have to admit your are very passionate. Anyone that would prefer death to the cause of peace and understanding is certainly someone to have a reasoned and sensible discussion with.

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:31 pm
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          @Frosty.

          You are full of baloney. it is not “paranoia” to point out FYROM;s government are encouraging citizens to think that they are descendents of ancient Macedonians and that macedonia Greece is occupied.

          The very fact your gloss over FYROM bizarre attempt to usurpt Greek history with countless ancient macedonia references and constant insinuations that MY soverign country belongs to your… is a testimonial to you own manipulative fanaticism.

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:41 pm
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          @Frosty – Sorry not buying it anymore. Your persecuted “Macedoinan minority” manipulations are no different than the ones FYROM’s politicians and fake human rights groups like MHRMI/AMHRC have been using for years.

          You claim one thing publically but in practice amongst yourselves you do the exact opposite.

          For example here is a spot on National run TV (written by a prominent leader of the “World Macedonian Congress) that not only bizarrely states that FYROM nationalists are decedents of ancient Macedonians but even progenitors of the “white race”!
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_HB2A_sIw4

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:48 pm
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          @Frosty “represent Macedonians ancient and modern”

          There you go again trying add ancient Macedonians as part of your cultural space while simultaneously claiming to be against historical revisionism. Ancient Macedonians are not part of your Slavic cultural space FYROM isn’t even a part of ancient Macedonia. FYROM ultra nationalists like you (and your aplogists) ignorantly onfuse modern with ancient nomenclature. The geography region of today’s FyROM corrolates to ancient Paeonia not ancient Macedonia which is entirely in Greece (including Alexander’s birthplace)

          There is no moral or intellectual justification for buiding a giant Alexander statue and naming everything in sight after ancient Greek historical figures when you know full well Greeks (especially Macedonian ones) will view it as provocation. Propaganda in action.

  • August 14, 2012 at 11:59 pm
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    Hello Akron greetings from multicultural multiethnic Britain!. So you say that ‘identification requires that others recognize you as such’, better let the 133 foreign nations that have recognized the country under the name of “Republic of Macedonia” that they are all wrong. Identity is an individuals right, whether it be religious, sexual, or cultural, Macedonian’s of all backgrounds don’t care what you want to call them. They know who they are. Your denial of an identity and the human right of self identification only makes a mockery of the supposed modern, democratic, European state which you yourself identify with. Alexander an ancient Macedon, Samuel a Bulgarian Tsar, and Mother Teresa an ethnic Albanian are all important figures in the history of Macedonia. Macedonia, Macedonians and their history is as diverse as the ethnic make up of the region. Go to The Republic Of Macedonia, visit the prehistoric Kokino observatory, see Philip II’s Herculea at Bitola, revel in the many religious sites of Ohrid once the capital and stronghold of the Bulgarian Empire and you will realise (like those that live in Macedonia) that ‘Macedonia’ and being ‘Macedonian’ is more than a ridiculous notion of a supposed pure, unadulterated, biological continuity from a kingdom over 2000 years ago. Nationalism is indeed dangerous, yet there is only one state sponsored denial of human rights and attempted monopolisation of an identity and name in this issue. You say that Gruevski ‘works hard to deny the ethnicity of Greeks’ and that ‘History shows a clear manipulation of facts’ give us examples, back up your argument. What is ‘his ludicrous plan’? The nationalist paradigm that comes from the Hellenic Republic is always full of vague, paranoid, and hysterical statements. Here in London this past week we’ve held the Olympics, (thanks for that ancient Greece). Mohamed Farah, a Muslim man who was born in Somali, and moved to Britain at aged 8 won 2 gold medals. Do we deny him his decision of self identification? Because he can’t trace his ethnicity back 2000 years to the time of bronze and beaker pottery, are we to rip the Union Jack from his sports kit? No because the British Isles, like Macedonia is made up of all sorts of cultures, religions, narratives, and identities. Accept the complexities of people traveling across continents and time. Its time to look beyond ancient kingdoms and long dead despots, start living and communicating in the modern, democratic, free Europe you purport to be part of.

    • August 15, 2012 at 8:53 pm
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      Interestingly enough you have made a very good point. I’m not sure you meant to but you have chanced upon a great example of how both ethnic groups and the narratives that grow up around them are fluid. To use your example of Northern France if I may; Cornouaille is a historic region in Brittany, in northwest France, Cornwall is an English county across the channel. There is a relationship between the two ethnic groups, they share a similar language, and Brittany used to be known in English as Little Britain to distinguish it from Great Britain. We know that we share elements of our identity, and no one will try an monopolise the name, the term Briton, Breton, Britan, or Brittany. The King Arthur myth was in part created by French poets of the Romantic period, in the poem ‘Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart’, by Chrétien de Troyes we are introduced to Lancelot and his adulterous relationship with Arthur’s queen. Complicated isn’t it? A shared narrative, myth and complex history not confined to national borders. Some people refer to London as France’s sixth biggest city. The French consulate in London estimates between 300,000 and 400,000 French citizens live in the British capital. Britain recognises this minority, and rejoices in it. We don’t deny them the use of their language or culture, we even have the Third constituency for French residents a region that elected its first ever representative at the 2012 French legislative election. The two examples you use of post war and cold war politics are in my opinion irrelevant in the stance that the Greek government takes over its denial of human rights. Both examples you give are of a time when the threat of Communist expansion in the Balkans would have led powers such as the US and the UK to side with states such as Greece. That threat from Communism doesn’t exist anymore, perhaps that is why America and Britain have both recognised Macedonia by its constitutional name.

      • August 15, 2012 at 9:43 pm
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        Red herring. The places that share names typically do not attempt to wholesale usurp the identity of people of another nation or have government officials encourage there citizens to see someone else’s country as occupied.

        This is why Greece has never objected to Macedonia or Athens USA.

        However this is not the case with you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarian who clearly abuse the name to insinuate not only massive sections of our country belong to you but even our very identity.

        Sorry frosty. You very well know the majority of you are direct descendents of Bulgarians. You had an identity and there was no reason to come after ours. Its not the fault of Greeks you oppress that and continue to play these name games with us. You could just as easily called yourselves Bulgarians again (or something else entirely unencumbered by history) to avoid these problems but instead you wanted to continue the Balkan wars, WW2, and cold war conscious IMRO propaganda games. These are your choices not ours. Take moral responsibility for your own mistakes instead of trying to constantly blame Greeks.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhMiXV7814

        • August 15, 2012 at 11:03 pm
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          If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be a ‘direct descendents of Bulgarians’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

        • August 15, 2012 at 11:08 pm
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          @Frosty – You are just repeating canned statement.

          Trying to repeatedly whitewash FYROM’s manipulative atttempts to usurp our identity and rampent irredenism shows you are the one that isn’t concerned with human rights.

          At lest check Greece is a sovereign country not the property of the FYROM government. Every word you use to apologize for fascist ultra nationalists in FYROM is you spitting on the human rights you claim to support. At last check Greeks have human rights too.

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:18 am
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    @ Frosty. That’s great. At least you acknowledge that Alexander was Greek, Samuel was Bulgarian and Mother Teresa was Albanian. ThatKs a good start. Now start putting the pressure on Gruevski’s government to do the same.

    Bitola or Monastiri, is the only part of ancient Macedonia in FYROM. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were driven out of there in 1913.

    Ludicrous claims? I dont have enough space, but here are a few to start with:
    1) The Rosetta Stone Demotic Egyptian is really the Mecedonian language, proving the continuity of your race. Every historian and liguist in the past 200 years was wrong.
    2)You are Makenoids, the fathers of the white race
    3) The Greeks destroyed all evidence of the true macedonian language and culture of Alexander the Great. The Ancient Macedonians were Slavs not Greeks.
    4)Skopje DNA sponsored studies show you are decendants of the ancients (non published studies of course, but still referred to as fact)

    All ludicrous, and all supported and sponsored by the government in Skopje.

    • August 15, 2012 at 10:51 am
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      Good morning Akron. Take the time and read my post carefully, dont rush headlong into the tired hysterical diatribe, the basis for your denial of human rights, you will see that your reply confirms my points. I state ‘Alexander an ancient Macedon, Samuel a Bulgarian Tsar, and Mother Teresa an ethnic Albanian’ at no point do I call Alexander The Great Greek. Its for historians to debate whether the long dead civilisation Macedon/ancient Macedonia was part of the group of sometimes waring city states known as Ancient Greece, or was it a region more complicated, different? Alexander along with Tsar Samuel and Mother Teresa amongst others are individuals who modern Macedonia sees as important in the formation of their modern European republic. Whether you or I disagree with this identification is irrelevant. If modern Greece (declared in 1822) wants to identify with a kingdom who subjugated Athens and Thebes at The Battle of Chaeronea 338BC fine no one should disagree. As an English man I don’t identify with St. George a Roman soldier from Syria Palaestina, and yet there are many images of him all over my country, and many who feel he is an important part of their identity. By your argument we should be pulling down statues, burning art, and renaming our flag. So Bitola was the only part of Macedonia that was part of Macedon. Presumably the ancient Macedonians ignored the 25k between Herculea and the modern Greek border, they weren’t interested in the land to the east and west. Your biggest ignorance however is the vague, paranoid, and hysterical statements that I mentioned in my previous post. Your list of ‘Ludicrous claims’ (previously ‘his ludicrous plan’ presumably you couldn’t demonstrate any plan as such) are baseless, where are your sources? where is the evidence of these state sponsored claims? Dont complain of not having ‘enough space’ look at my post (I tend to go on). Or are you just spouting the nationalistic, hysterical, vague, paranoid propaganda used to deny an entire modern European nation its human rights. We want specifics. We want evidence not just hear say. Not just selective events look to the other side; ‘Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were driven out’, what of the Macedonians forcibly removed from Northern Greece last century? What of the minority that remain and the refusal to recognise their identity by their own government? The history of the region known as Macedonia is varied and vast. The ebb and flow of cultures, religions, and politics has been great during these times all should recognise this. To use one brief debated period of history to monopolise an identity (from either side), to deny a modern, democratic, European state its place in the modern world is shameful. Discuss, debate, acknowledge the past but don’t let it hold you or others back.

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:24 am
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    Overall I agree with you, but you know that your government doesn’t see things the way you do. They fabricate ancient history to make claims on Greece and Bulgaria. That is why a simple name change is necessary. Northern Macedonia is fair and allows the Greeks and Bulgarians to see themselves as something different than you. It doesn’t monopolize the name, and it helps to curb irredentism by referring to the area geographically.

    • August 15, 2012 at 5:03 pm
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      I don’t agree with you Akron. It is not “fair” to accept any Macedonia in FYROM;s name (aka ancient Paeonia). This so-called “compromise” was artificially manufactured entirely due to unprincipled patronizing anti-hellenic trolls that pressured Greece. I would note now that FYROM ultra nationalists have turned into “ancient Macedonians” and constantly insinuate Greece is occupied territory (which we warned would happen)…these same sorts of pretenious sorts that lectured Greeks now pretend not to notice their behavior (and some even trying to narrate Greek out of ethnic existence with pomo deconstructive gibberish to hide their shame).

      Even from a practical standpoint any reference to Macedonia in the former Yugoslavians name (mostly former ethnic Bulgarians) isn’t even a practical long term solution. FYROM ultra natioanlists have shown their cards by building giant Alexander statues and constantly moving the bar. Referencing them “Macedonian” in any shape or form will only drag on the issues perpetually.

      Blame Greece for its government fiances. For FYROM it is entirely fault of FYROM and its smug Greek hating apologists.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:27 am
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    As long as the skopjian authorities invent their ID by building statues that are of either Greek, Bulgarian, and indigenous Albanians, they will always instill suspicion.

    The Slavs of FYROM who came here to our land around 700-900AD are said by our indigenous Albanian ancestors to have always called themselves Bulgars. Now that the modern skopjian leadership has towed the Titoist party line to invent and create a new ID out of the mostly Bulgarian speaking Slavs of our land is nothing new.

    The only problem is that only the skopjian authorities and their army of jingoists don’t see it. They believe that they can build their identity out of cheap concrete and iron.

    So much for the ancestors of the skopjian authorities who when they first came to our lands in their animal skins and primitive culture were accepted by the indigneous Albanians here and the Greek tribes to the south. They were civilised here accepting our Balkan cuisines, folklore, customs, traditonal linen clothes, etc. Even the Slavic peasants today still dress in our traditonal indigenous clothes with those ancient Illyrian and Paeonian designs on them and found around on many archaeological sites that reveal our Illyrian iconograhy.

    The Bulgarians speak of the skopjian authorities in the same manner that the skopjian government does of them. For example, the skopjians leadership also denies the huge Bulgarian identity among their people, so what is the difference. Possibly the skopjian leadership has to also pull its finger out and instead of taking a wiff of their own behinds, smell the roses on the other side of nationalistic jingoism.

    ‘First you have to respect, before you are respected’ is an ancient Illyrian saying still retold by the indigenous Albanians here. Yes respect is lacking here in FYROM but what else is new?

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:42 am
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    By the way I agree with Frosty that the people here in FYROM should be correctly and most importantly considered as being from all backgrounds, e.g. Bulgarians, indigenous Albanians, Vlachs, Greeks, Turks, and Roma gypsies. And as such these are the real representaives of the historical narrative here and not some neo-Titoist ethnicity, but rather a regional nationality, such as the British, Americans, Swiss, etc.

    If people and especially the skopjians leadership would accept FYROM’s ethnic diversity and respect the fundamental rights of our indigenous Albanian people it woulsd indeed be a better place for us all.

  • August 15, 2012 at 3:40 am
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    for a country that has had democracy since 1974 a lot of stuff gets said about how long you have had a country. Please worry about year land and not worry about the macedonians.The greeks always lived near the sea. Bitola, is not near water.GREEK FARMER: someone who sits at a cafana …sips ouzo….watching his olive tree grow.

  • August 15, 2012 at 7:29 am
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    A fellow is mentioning the name (Yunan-Yunanistan) for the Greeks used in the East languages, Arabs, Afghans ,Persians , Indians, Jews, Kurds,Turks .as something new and unusual to his ignorance .The word “YUNAN” stands for” Ionians” one of the 4 Hellenic tribes (Ionians , Dorians, Aeolians and Achaeans) In the narrowest sense, it was used of the region of Ionia in Asia Minor since many Ionians emigrated to the coast of Asia Minor, founding the historical region of Ionia.The Persians named the Macedonians “Yunan takabara” meaning Ionians (greeks) with a helmet like a buckler. Later the Turks also called the Greeks “Yunan”until today ,along with all east world ,educate your self firstly mr Peter before giving history lessons !

  • August 15, 2012 at 11:11 am
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    The same slavs(Blgarin)in FYROM asking from the Greek to give “forgiveness” for the slavomacedonians communists in Greek civil war 1949 Yesterday,They were very upset, using words full of hate against to their ethnic albanian compatriots. because the fyrom minister of defence mr Fatim Besimi(ethnic albanian) gave a honor to UCK fighters being killed in kumanovo on FYROM’s civil war 2000

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:00 pm
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    Mr frosty(i hope not in mind)!!! since you live in a great country England i will advice you before making “historical references” about ancient battles like Chaeronea in 338 bc ,to read first the Britannica encyclopedia to see what was the purpose of this battle and what influence had in Greek affairs ( see Corinthian league) and 2nd that, ancient Greeks fought each other for domination over ancient Greek world without considering their opponents as non greeks . i will tell you that Athens fought with Sparta for more that 40 years Thiba also fought with Athens ect .Also after Alexander’s death the macedonians diadochi fought each other with two bloody wars. BBC tv had a documentary last year about this “paradox of the ‘Greek Thing ” explaining how the ancient greeks were together as brothers and in the same time were different as enemies , ofcourse those are “greek” to you because your “history education”and your mentality is coming from slavic diaspora falsifiers who “brain-washing” the poor slavs!!!

    • August 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm
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      Thank you MITSOS you have made my point for me. Ancient history, is ancient history. My historical reference was to show how peoples of all cultures can use dead civilizations and despots from over 2000 years ago to create, and justify their own identity. The arguments that come from the nationalistic Hellenic paradigm, the way in which they imply a pure unadulterated biological link to ancient races and the use of this to monopolise an ethnic identity, in my view are wrong. I would at no point deny you these thoughts, as that is your human right to self determination and yet you would use them to deny others. I am fascinated by ancient history but it has very little relevance to how we, members of supposed European democracies must deal with one another here today in 2012. I saw that documentary as well, Richard Miles the historian who presented said programme referred to Philip Of Macedon and his son Alexander as a ‘dynasty of outsiders’ in relation to ancient Greece, complex isn’t it. The most interesting paradox in regards to the ‘Greek thing’ in my mind is the fact that ancient Greece consisted of many tribes, and minorities. Each with their different political and belief systems, differences that could often lead to war. And yet today we are supposed to accept from those who would readily rejoice in Ancient Greece that contemporary Greece, The Hellenic Republic is ethnically homogenous; a united, simple, pure, biologically exact society with direct ethnic links to the fractious, conflict prone tribal Ancient Greece city states… makes you think. Again if you feel empathy and sympathy for these ancient groups, no one should deny you that association. This however must go for all. My ‘mentality’ comes from various places; University, Books, Papers all sorts of media. Empirical evidence is the most important area for me though; to be able to hear the thoughts and fears of all involved in this issue. Just as I have experienced the prejudice of those who would deny a nation its identity, I have also met Macedonians who don’t care what you want to call them they just want the right to get on in the modern free democratic continent that the Greek right wing would prevent them form joining.

      As an aside please give us some more information in regards to what Mr. Fatmir Besimi actually said, and what exactly happened ‘yesterday’ I can’t find any reference to this intriguing yet extremely confusing and vague post.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:07 pm
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        BBC documentary does not separate the ancient macedonians from the “greek thing ” if that was Richard Miles impresion as you say .he wouldn’t include the macedonians in “greek paradox thing” . LOL ! “the macedonian royal family be a ‘dynasty of outsiders’” My friend how that can be possible???? how the royal family can be non greeks when they claim brave GREEK ancestry from timenides family in Argos peloponnisos descendants of Herakles (Argead dynasty) wake up my frient from your darkness !!!the rest you are mentioning of what you are thinking about ancient greeks ,is not the time to give you history lessons but open some english book to educate your self, also pay attention on documentary title it is “the greek thing” not the “greek think”

        • August 15, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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          Frosty!@@@i dont speak “oxford english” i presume neither you . BUT I THINK the word “outsider” in english means also the person we dont like around us .or the person who has no important role in a subject ! yes or no? in greek language we say “παρείσακτος” and its true that philp and macedonians were considered as second class by south greeks thus “outsiders” but not “foreigners” if you see bbc documentary you will see that says …..the outsiders…… philip unites the greek fractions..and his son alexander will carry the greek thing forward in his macedonian spear … my friend i lost my time with you you need english language teacher not historian !!

          • August 15, 2012 at 9:35 pm
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            Brilliant! Criticised for my use of English…

            ‘my friend i lost my time with you you need english language teacher not historian !!’

            That should read: ‘My (capital M) friend I (capital I) have (or I’ve) lost my time with you, (comma or full stop, your choice) you need an (determiner) English (capital E) language teacher not historian !!’

            My spelling and grammar are by no means perfect. This is not the point of this forum. I apologise, I couldn’t resist. I hope I’ve helped.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:20 pm
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          Hello! you obviously haven’t read my post carefully enough. You state ‘pay attention on documentary title it is “the greek thing” not the “greek think”’. Take a deep breath, read it again and tell me where I have written ‘greek think’. I don’t think you should be drawing attention to the use of written English in these posts. I could point out your misuse of a full stop ‘as you say .he wouldn’t’, your failure to use the word ‘the’ ‘BBC documentary does not’, your spelling error of friend as ‘frient’. I could adopt your discursive style, I could go on, but your failure to use English properly is not the issue. My point wasn’t to claim Philip and Alexander for any particular power or group. I was trying to demonstrate that a history, a narrative and some say myth can be used by ALL to try and monopolise a name or identity. In my humble opinion the use of Alexander and his history to deny a modern European democracy its base human right of self determination is utterly wrong.

          please I repeat my request, give us some more information in regards to what Mr. Fatmir Besimi said, and what exactly happened ‘yesterday’.

          • August 16, 2012 at 10:50 am
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            “thing” and “think” It was a personal philological pun , to show you that seemingly same words have different meanings !(remember the talks about ‘the outsiders’). However you have write correctly the title of bbc documentary. I expect,you have understood and the meaning how much “outsider” was Alexander the great for hellenism!! .Ofcourse i don’t speak -write advanced english , since my education is exclusively hellenic. i made critics to your english since ,regardless the claim that you are a native british (?) your language quality is rather poor with bad spelling in a sence that “language mistakes” can be understood by a foreigner like me language is the treasure of each nation .I wouldn’t permit to my self to make language mistakes in my hellenic language talking in a public forum! Finaly , about the skopian minister who pay honor to uck monument , and the reactions from the slavic side , you can get all the information you need just reading the fyrom’s media in english editions or in their bulgarian idiom if it is understood by you!!

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:51 pm
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        @frosty

        “all cultures can use dead civilizations and despots from over 2000 years ago to create, and justify their own identity.”

        If you meant it you would be spending most of your time criticizing the current ultra FYROM government (and the people that supported them) for constantly manipulatively trying to portray themselves as descendents of ancient Macedonians… rather than just criticizing Greeks.

        Sorry Frosty. Not buying the stalling and manipualtive misuse of of words ‘human rights’ and “minorities” any longer. You are an ultra nationalist just like Gruvski.

        Stop oppressing evidence of FYROM’s primarily ethnic Bulgarians past and change the name of FYROM (since FYROM are the one that keeps claiming it is just a name) Then we can talk. Until them I don’t believe anything that comes out of the mouth of ultra nationalist manipulators like you.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:44 pm
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          If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be an ‘ultra nationalist just like Gruvski.’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 9:56 pm
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            @frosty – False floggers online are a dime a dozen. Someone can even claim to be “British” but actually have ethnic roots from the Balkans.

            Even on the chance you are ethnically British i would first learn past British stances on this issue before lecturing Greeks on it because the current British goernment (and even some in the media) are a bunch of unprincipled anti-Hellenic trolls that dishonestly hide information like this from the British people.

            It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” – Edward O’Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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            @frosty

            Again anyone can claim anything what they want about their alleged heritage online. I know first hand countless FYROM nationalists pretend to be other ethnic groups as a form of trickery. (to show how they are objective) Given your selective blindness it is clear you are either a FYROM natioanlist or a patronzing bigot with SEVERE prejudices against Greeks.

            However even running with your claim that you are “English”… how do you the England would react if northern France started to reference itself as “ethnic English”? Claimed King Henry their national hero? Redeclared a french dialect “English”? Encouraged its citizens to see 1/3 of the UK as occupied? And claimed Britian was persecuted the “Ethnic English minority in British occupied England”?

            You think Cameron would have “recognized” such bizarre and dangerous behavior? I think we both know the answer to that you pretentious Greek hating manipulator.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:50 pm
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    Haha. Frosty your true agenda reveals itdelf. You go back to ancient history to justify your claim. It’s you who is being histerical.
    If self identity is such a fundamental right, why do you deny Alexander’s right to identify as a Greek? He did so several times, even outlining his dorian ancestry.
    You can call yourself Macedonian, but don’t take away your grandfathers right and self proclamation that he was Bulgarian. That’s being hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
    And evidence? Just google the topics you lazy idiot. For example, when a government scientist on the government payroll publishes a study that the Demotic Egyptian on Rosetta Stone is really your very own Bulgarian dialect I would considere that government sponsored. When a ten minute add featuring the voice of the devil comes on your state television and tells the people that you are Makenoids and the fathers of the white race, surely it was sponsored by the government. When public schools have maps that include parts of Greece and Bulgaria, surely the government must have approved them. You play coy, but you are only fooling yourself.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
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      Ah ha Akron! You fail on so many levels. I have claimed nothing. As I said in my earlier post ‘Its for historians to debate whether the long dead civilisation Macedon/ancient Macedonia was part of the group of sometimes waring city states known as Ancient Greece, or was it a region more complicated, different?’. Take your time, read it carefully and try and understand, that statement is not a claim, in fact its a question, hence the question mark. I don’t deny any individual the right to identify themselves even a dead man from over 2000yrs ago. Again calm down and read my post carefully; I am trying to demonstrate the dangers of an assumed and monopolised identity. You say ‘You can call yourself Macedonian, but don’t take away your grandfathers right and self proclamation that he was Bulgarian. That’s being hypocritical wouldn’t you say?’, I certainly wouldn’t say, here are the dangers of an assumed ethnicity. My Grandfathers were both English, I am English, I have no Macedonian heritage what so ever. You fail because you assume that I am Macedonian, that I have an inherent bias. So when you talk of ‘your statue’ and ‘your own governmenbt’ you demonstrate the furious ignorance that clouds your ability to understand someone elses point of view. If you were calm and collected and had an ounce of objectivity you might have spotted the clues in my previous post; I talked of a British athlete and how ‘we’ do not deny his identity, I refer to myself, ‘As an English man’ I even send you greetings from ‘multicultural multiethnic Britain’. You’re so wrapped up in your hatred, lack of understanding and fear for the liberties and expression that the modern world can afford you that you fail to listen and understand the very person you argue with and insult. What a pleasant individual you are; you call me a ‘lazy idiot’ and refer to me and what you wrongly thought my people as ‘snivelling cowards the whole lot of you’. I have googled these topics and yet all I seem to find is similarly hysterical, bizarre, paranoid rantings from other human rights denying extremists. You still don’t give specifics, you still spout alarmist statements with no reference to anything factual; you say ‘surely it was sponsored by the government’, ‘surely’ is not the language of definition rather doubt. Give us some bonafide facts so that we might have a proper discussion and raise this whole conversation above the use of cheap insults and vague assumptions.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:56 pm
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        @frosty

        You care nothing for facts except facts that suit your narrative as “Macedonian”. Given your language, culture, history, last names, it is blatantly obvious you are not “ethnic Macedonians”. When you lying ultra nationalist hypocrites stop oppressing evidence of your ethnic Bulgarian past and stop calling yourselves “Macedonians” then Greeks can start taking your arguments more seriously.

        Identity is a human right frosty. Not identity theft. You former ethnic Bulgarians need to find your own path not steal the identity of others.

        “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:53 pm
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          Please its getting boring now. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be a ‘lying ultra nationalist.’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:04 pm
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            @frosty

            Again anyone can claim anything what they want about their alleged heritage online. I know first hand countless FYROM nationalists pretend to be other ethnic groups as a form of trickery. (to show how they are objective) Given your selective blindness it is clear you are either a FYROM natioanlist or a patronzing bigot with SEVERE prejudices against Greeks.

            However even running with your claim that you are “English”… how do you the England would react if northern France started to reference itself as “ethnic English”? Claimed King Henry their national hero? Redeclared a french dialect “English”? Encouraged its citizens to see 1/3 of the UK as occupied? And claimed Britian was persecuted the “Ethnic English minority in British occupied England”?

            You think Cameron would have “recognized” such bizarre and dangerous behavior? I think we both know the answer to that you pretentious Greek hating manipulator.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm
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    And in a previous post you said that 133 countries regognize you as being Macedonia. How do you feel that the vast majority support the name negotiations? Or that not one of those countries agrees with your countries attempt to link itslef to the ancient Greeks? Isn’t that why you call your statue of Alexander “man on a horse”? Because your own governmenbt wouldn’t dare say your people are linked to the ancient Greeks publicly. Like snivelling cowards the whole lot of you.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:31 pm
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      I hope 133 countries don’t recognise me as Macedonian! I might have my British passport removed. The statue in the center of Skopje (the capital of The Republic Of Macedonia) is called ‘Warrior On A Horse’, come on Akron any ‘lazy idiot’ could google and find out what the statues actual name is. This is the bit I am confused about in one post you say ‘Because your own governmenbt wouldn’t dare say your people are linked to the ancient Greeks publicly’ but in your previous post you say ‘a government scientist on the government payroll publishes a study that the Demotic Egyptian on Rosetta Stone is really your very own Bulgarian dialect I would considere that government sponsored. When a ten minute add featuring the voice of the devil comes on your state television and tells the people that you are Makenoids and the fathers of the white race, surely it was sponsored by the government. When public schools have maps that include parts of Greece and Bulgaria, surely the government must have approved them.’ Which is it? Either its a public declaration on the TV in schools, or published or its the actions of what you call ‘snivelling cowards’ You can’t have it both ways. Thats not to say that these are actually rambling, general unsubstantiated comments that are disregarded as quickly as you read them. Respect to you though Akron you really are very passionate about Ancient Macedonians and Greeks, its just a shame that this energy is channeled into understanding the modern world and those you fear across the border in The Republic Of Macedonia.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:32 pm
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        As I recall… all these people that “recognized” you former Bulgarians as “Macedonians” was back when your politicians were assuring them you weren’t related to ancient Macedonians? The very fact some of your apologists pretend not to notice your sudden change and irredentism… reveals them as Greek-hating bigots.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:57 pm
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          Don’t get excited but your right I’m not ‘related to ancient Macedonians’. I am however not a former Bulgarian either. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:13 pm
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            Anyone can claim anything online.

            And if you cared about human rights you would denounce FYROM’s blatantly obvious state propaganda and irreddentism rather than apologizing for it.

  • August 15, 2012 at 2:08 pm
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    Here is Alexandre self Identifying as Greek:
    “For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery.” (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

    “Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.” (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

    “Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know.” (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])

    The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia… Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos”
    (Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)

    “But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
    so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place.”
    (Herod. V, 22, 2)

    The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games “Men of Athens…
    Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery….
    If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.
    I am Alexander of Macedon.”
    (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:43 pm
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      Hooray! Selective quotes from ancient texts. The last bastion of those who see the life of Alexander The Great as all there is to being Macedonian. Macedonian history is more than the actions of a self proclaimed god from 2000 yrs ago.
      I keep saying I’m not concerned with ancient history, its the here and now that is more important.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:22 pm
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        @frosty – cry your crocodile tears to the fish who believed you fascist manipulators (imo due to their prejudices against Greeks)

        The cold war fact is while FYROM ultra nationalists like you constantly pretend not to be concerned with ancient history… the FYROM government (and massive numbers of citizens) name everything in site after ancient Greek historical figures and teaches its children they are the descendents of ancient Macedonians. (see giant Alexander stutue, airports, roads, building, cities, even their children names are now “Alexander” and “philip”).

        • August 15, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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          I’m not crying, more like laughing. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. You say ‘ultra nationalists like you’ and yet I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          I better let my friend Philip know that he should be changing his name. I wouldn’t want my mate Phil offending your delicate, extremist, right wing psyche.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:24 pm
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            @frosty

            Anyone can put ‘human rights’ in their sentences you manipulative Greek hating troll. Instead of hiding behind words why don’t you instead explain why FYROM”s officials meant when they used to say…

            “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

            And what did the US government (and British) mean when it used to claim this about FYROM’s “Macedonian” heritage?

            “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)
            http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:26 pm
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            @frosty

            Sure buddy. The issue is just about a name.. rather they their attempt to usurp our very identity and insinuate our country is “Greek occupied Macedonia”. You would have made a fine communist propagandist for Tito and company.