ISSN 2330-717X

Bulgarian Anti-Macedonian Bigotry From An EU MP – OpEd

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By OMO Ilinden PIRIN, the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International

A statement denying the existence of minorities in Bulgaria was made last week to the Macedonian media by an MP of the European Parliament, Andrej Kovachev – a member of the ruling party in Bulgaria (GERB). Similar views have also been recently expressed by Bulgaria’s Foreign Minister, Mladenov. Such an attitude raises the question of how sincere Bulgaria was in ratifying the Framework Convention for National Minorities and aids in explaining its practical non-application in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria
Bulgaria

The claim that there are no minorities in Bulgaria can be considered to be an expression of fascism, a yearning for a “pure nation”, something which the European Union should condemn as scandalous and unacceptable. Moreover the specific denial by Mr. Kovachev of the existence of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria is not only a flagrant lie but also a severe act of discrimination.

We, of course, support the right of every individual to freely determine her/his identity and we condemn any sort of discrimination on that basis wherever it may occur. This also applies to Bulgarians in the Republic of Macedonia. However, the artificial conversion by Mr. Kovachev, of cases to do with criminal conduct in Macedonia, into cases of “ethnic discrimination” cannot be described as anything other than a conscious and deliberate policy of provocation – a childish attempt to vilify Macedonians and to poison relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia. It also serves as a hindrance to European stability and cooperation in general.

Before it places conditions on others, Bulgaria itself would do well to satisfy those same conditions. The recognition of and according of rights to minorities, including the Macedonian minority, as well as making serious efforts to end hate speech, are criteria which Bulgaria has still not satisfied.

 

The opinions expressed are the authors’ own

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192 thoughts on “Bulgarian Anti-Macedonian Bigotry From An EU MP – OpEd

  • August 14, 2012 at 2:13 pm
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    Isn’t the author of this article the same organization that said there are no Bulgarians in Bulgaria, just Gypsies and Turks? Hypocricy knows no bounds with these delusional Skopje bigots

    • August 14, 2012 at 4:12 pm
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      The answer is no, That was Todor Petkov of the non governmental organisation The World Macedonian Congress who wrote what some saw as an inflammatory, misguided response to the state sponsored bigotry. The three organisations who contributed to this article are OMO Ilinden PIRIN (a political party), the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International. One of their priorities is the support and defence of human rights ‘We, of course, support the right of every individual to freely determine her/his identity and we condemn any sort of discrimination on that basis wherever it may occur’. OMO Ilinden PIRIN has suffered persecution from the Bulgarian Constitutional Court. In 2000 the European Court of Human Rights condemned Bulgaria because of violations of the OMO Ilinden–Pirin’s freedom of organising meetings. The court stated that Bulgaria had violated Act 11 from the European Convention of Human Rights. So no this article isn’t hypocritical or delusional, its a piece highlighting the ethnic discrimination and specific denial of a community within what is supposed to be a modern, free, European democracy.

      • August 15, 2012 at 11:32 pm
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        @frosty

        Sorry. Freedom and right to identity does include identity theft. That’s a crime.

  • August 14, 2012 at 7:44 pm
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    Skopjeans fail to understand a very simple concept about identity. You have every right to identify yourself as Macedonian, but identification requires that others recognize you as such. It’s a two way process. Given the history and propaganda in your country, it is perfectly within any reasonable persons right to say you are not ethnically Macedonian. If you now stand up and demand that everyone regognize you as German, the same would apply. You have every right to do so,but don’t expect others to simply accept what you say.

    • August 14, 2012 at 9:28 pm
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      Actually, you are wrong. An ethnicity is a group of people who have the same feelings about who they are and share the same language, beliefs, customs and folklore. Also, the international community has and will continue to recognize Macedonians as an ethnic group, only Greece and Bulgaria do not because they do not want to explain what they did to Macedonians since dividing Macedonia in 1913, only the Serbians have apologized for their actions thus far. The Greeks don’t realize time is on the Macedonian side, with time more and more nations understand the unilateral “name issue” is simply to cover up the Macedonians minority in Greece and the abuse the Macedonians take by the Greek government.

      • August 14, 2012 at 10:14 pm
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        @Bill – Your belief that “Macedonia” was “divided in 1913” is a popular myth amongst both you and your apologists. What was divided in 1913 was OTTOMAN territories dear.. not some non-existent “Macedonian” state. In addition FYROM nationalists (and your Greek-hating apologists) constantly confuse your modern nomenclature with ancient. Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia (i.e. the ancient Hellenic kingdom) is ENTIRELY in Greece. FYROM is situated in a region called “Paeonia” in antiquty)

        As for “recognition”.. the very fact your long time patronizing apologists now dishonestly pretend not to notice (or downplay) your sudden identity change into descededents of “ancient Macedonians” and irredentist rhetoric (which you yourself participate in)… is a testimonal to their prejudices again Greeks. (presumably an attempt to cover up their shame)

        “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

        ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

        “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

        ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

        etc..

        • August 15, 2012 at 1:51 am
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          You are ignorant to say the least.You don’t even know history judging from your response.
          Read some history that is unbiased.
          The Ottoman Empire called you the Yunanista(not Greece).
          I will quote an article once again to proove you are totally wrong.
          “US wanted Macedonia independent back in 1783.
          ……………………………………….. “The project of setting at liberty the whole country of ancient Greece,Macedonia and Illyricum,and erecting independent Republics in those famous seats,however solendid it may appear in speculation,is not likely to be seriously entertained by the two Empires,because it is impracticable.The Greeks of this day,although they are said to have imagination and ingenuity,are corrupted in their morals to such a degree,as to be a faithless,perfidious race,destitute of courage,as well as of those principles of honor and virtue,without which nations can have no confidence in one another,nor be trusted by others.Unfortunatly for some Balkan nations(including Macedonia),it was the French,Prussians(Germany) who decided who gets independence.
          The US president was well aware the French and Germans were pushing their own agendas on the Balkans”.
          Adams then goes on to describe the Greeks as people…230 years later they are still described in the same way,”corrupted in their morals to such a degree,as to be faithless,perfidious race,destitute of courage…”
          Your comments fit the description of Adams remarks.That’s who you are!!
          I am proud Macedonian,my forfathers were Macedonians,so was Alexander the Great,and there is nothing you can change my dear fellow.
          As some commentators say,you identify yourself as you feel,you speak the same language,same culture,even same DNA.
          If you don’t know about 1913 when Greece occupied Aegean Macedonia,Epirus and Crite,I can only asume,you are an uneducated,ignorant person!!
          Worth mentioning,when Macedonia existed Bulgaria was not even on a map,ancient or otherwise.B.Dimitrov can’t even make-up his mind as to,from where the Bulgars came to this area.Once he said they came from Volga,next from Bahtria,and recently he claims from Persia(Iran).That’s the father of Bulgarian history!

          • August 15, 2012 at 11:02 pm
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            @peter the evader.

            I would note you completely evaded answering again. Instead you responded with out-of-context references that attempt to confuse people living in Macedonia region and FYROM (i.e. Paeonia) with the fact these people didn’t actually self-identify as “ethnic Macedonians”. The fact is prior to the 20th century the majority of people that lived in what is today FYROM self-identified as Bulgarians. You know. I know it. The historians of the world know it.

            US anthropologist Loring Danforth was a long time supporter of FYROM. He even listed on MHRMI’s website as an expert on this issue (thus can’t be accused of being a Greek propagandist which is the norm for ultra nationalists like). Here is what MHRMI’s own expert and supporter used to say about your “Macedonian” heritage. (which of course fanatics in MHRMI selectively hide and even Danforth himself dishonestly pretends not to notice FYROM’s sudden identity change

            “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.” – US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

          • August 15, 2012 at 11:03 pm
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            @Peter the evader

            So dear… can you answer the question as to what FYROM’s own elected politicians meant when they used to assure everyone…

            “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

            ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

            “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

            ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

  • August 14, 2012 at 7:55 pm
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    I am sure there are a few Skopjeans in Bulgaria. People who came from the country of FYROM. But there are no ethnic Macedonian’s there. History shows a clear manipulation of facts in order to create an ethnicity that doesn’t exist outside being Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian or Serbian from the geographical region of Macedonia. Gruevski not only brings figures like Alexander, Tsar Samuel and Mother Teressa under the banner of one ethnic Macedonian ethnicity, he works hard to deny the ethnicity of Greeks, Bulgarians etc in order to achieve his ludicrous plan. It would be funny, if it nationalism wasn’t so dangerous.

    • August 14, 2012 at 11:32 pm
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      Good point. I tried to keep an open mind around the historical and moral issues but when FYROM (and even some of its patronizing apologists) started to incredibily hypocritically deny our Greek identity while simultaneously pretending not to notice FYROM’s change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians”… and rampant irredentism… I no longer needed historical narratives to observed their manipulations in the here and now. Greek hating bigots the lot of them.

  • August 14, 2012 at 10:07 pm
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    @Frosty

    MHRMI and AMHRC, are also non-government organzations… and they aren’t interested in “human rights”. They are just nationalist manipulators that put “human rights” and “minorities” in their organizations names to fool bleeding heart idiots that hear the words and immediate throw their brain out the window. (much like the communists used to do) Even Hitler originally claimed to be protecting the “oppressed German minorities”. A ruse to justify irredentism against another country.

    Actual human rights organizations look at the human rights of people other than their own nations (thus the “human” part) The extreme anti-Greek and anti-Bulgarian rhetoric and propaganda that comes out of MHRMI and AMHRC shows they are just ultra nationalist fronts.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
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      @Frosty

      Sorry Frosty… saying “human rights” alone is not some sort of moral excuse to support fascist expansionists in FYROM trying to ethnhically eradicate Greeks (in particular Macedonian ones). As for your references to oppressed “Macedonians In Macedonia”… I would point out Hitler also claimed to be only be concerned with alleged oppressed German minorities in neighbouring states… as ruse to justify expansionism.

      Communist dictators Tito and Stalin also used this exact propaganda technique of “oppressed minority” to assure everyone they had no intention to annex Macedonia Greece (to fool clueless easily manipulated with words bleed heart far leftist extremists)

      Shortly thereafter the communists funded a civil war between far leftist Greeks and the rest of the Greek population in an effort to detach Macedonia from Greece. At the time this is why western powers used to claim about your “Macedonian” identity (which your apologists hide to cover up their shame)

      “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)

      As far as your self-proclaimed “human rights” supporters…as ultra nationalist front MHRMI and AMHRC shows… anyone whatsoever can put “human rights” in their organization’s name. This does not actually such people are morally and intellectually infallible. For example. you mention the anti-Hellenic extremist at “Helsinki Greece” but neglect to mention Helsinki’s parent organization went bankrupt due to FRAUD. (including criminal charges)

      As I recall FYROM’s own elected diplomats used to assure Helsinki Greece (and other human rights organizations) you aren’t related to ancient Macedonians in any way or form. Now that the majority of FYROM’s citizens have suddenly done an identity quick change into ‘descendents of ancient Macedonians” and engage in endless irredentist rhetoric (encouraged by the government)… and some of your long time apologists dishonestly pretend they don’t notice or downplay your behavior?

      When your apologists became more concerned with covering up their shame for “recognizing” you..rather apologizing to Greece and supporting our human rights (which I assure you also exist)… they lost every last shred of moral and intellectual high ground on this issue.

      I myself disagree with the unprincipled stance my government took to accept a composite name (due to external political pressure from Greek-hating weasels of the sort that pretend not to notice your behavior). I will never call FYROM Macedonia and never support any Macedonia in FYROM’s name. FYROM ultra nationalists and your evil supporters will have to come kill Greeks like me like the fascists and communists once did.

      “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

      • August 15, 2012 at 8:05 pm
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        There is very little point in addressing posts such as this. The paranoia and hate that seeps from every line reveals that you are obviously someone without empathy. You plainly are a person who does not believe in human rights. There is one thing you got right ‘you aren’t related to ancient Macedonians in any way or form’. Now don’t get excited Anonymous (theres a lot of Anonymous post here), if you’ve read my post in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am simply observing a situation in the continent in which I live. You don’t have to be fearful of an expansionist Macedonia, your borders are safe; the interim accord of 1995 changed the Macedonian constitution to try and quell Greek fears, The Macedonian armed forces (although part of the allies in Afghanistan fighting in part for your freedom) are not a force to be reckoned with, most importantly you have the security of being part of NATO, a pact that the Greek government have illegally refused Macedonia membership of (see the ICJs judgement Dec.11). ‘I will never call FYROM Macedonia’ fine they don’t care, you can call them whatever you like. The important thing is that they know who they are, and they are given the freedom and basic human right to express this. It is a shame that the IHF went bankrupt, an organisation that was awarded the European Human Rights Prize jointly with Lech Wałęsa, certainly deserved better than a fraudulent financial manager. Kiro Gligorov expressed his opinion, you expressed yours, I’ve expressed mine. I won’t deny you your point of view, there is as I previously stated no point in reasoning with people who would rather death than reason and objectivity. But this constant return to the Macedonian identity being uniquely linked to the times of Alexander The Great is nonsense. You go on about Macedonians ‘trying to ethnhically eradicate Greeks’ where is this happening? A quick visit to Skopje city center and you’ll witness statues, which although in my opinion are economic folly, represent Macedonians ancient and modern, Bulgarians, Albanians all peoples that have contributed to the formation of a modern state. I don’t hate Greeks, I welcome all the financial help that you are receiving. I don’t want to see your country go any further down the toilet. I believe in the EU and the common ideals that it promotes, unfortunately successive Greek governments have paradoxically gone against those ideals and refused their neighbours access to economic, security, and cultural benefits that they enjoy. Anyway although I disagree with your furious, somewhat hysterical stance, I have to admit your are very passionate. Anyone that would prefer death to the cause of peace and understanding is certainly someone to have a reasoned and sensible discussion with.

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:31 pm
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          @Frosty.

          You are full of baloney. it is not “paranoia” to point out FYROM;s government are encouraging citizens to think that they are descendents of ancient Macedonians and that macedonia Greece is occupied.

          The very fact your gloss over FYROM bizarre attempt to usurpt Greek history with countless ancient macedonia references and constant insinuations that MY soverign country belongs to your… is a testimonial to you own manipulative fanaticism.

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:41 pm
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          @Frosty – Sorry not buying it anymore. Your persecuted “Macedoinan minority” manipulations are no different than the ones FYROM’s politicians and fake human rights groups like MHRMI/AMHRC have been using for years.

          You claim one thing publically but in practice amongst yourselves you do the exact opposite.

          For example here is a spot on National run TV (written by a prominent leader of the “World Macedonian Congress) that not only bizarrely states that FYROM nationalists are decedents of ancient Macedonians but even progenitors of the “white race”!
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_HB2A_sIw4

        • August 15, 2012 at 8:48 pm
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          @Frosty “represent Macedonians ancient and modern”

          There you go again trying add ancient Macedonians as part of your cultural space while simultaneously claiming to be against historical revisionism. Ancient Macedonians are not part of your Slavic cultural space FYROM isn’t even a part of ancient Macedonia. FYROM ultra nationalists like you (and your aplogists) ignorantly onfuse modern with ancient nomenclature. The geography region of today’s FyROM corrolates to ancient Paeonia not ancient Macedonia which is entirely in Greece (including Alexander’s birthplace)

          There is no moral or intellectual justification for buiding a giant Alexander statue and naming everything in sight after ancient Greek historical figures when you know full well Greeks (especially Macedonian ones) will view it as provocation. Propaganda in action.

  • August 14, 2012 at 11:59 pm
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    Hello Akron greetings from multicultural multiethnic Britain!. So you say that ‘identification requires that others recognize you as such’, better let the 133 foreign nations that have recognized the country under the name of “Republic of Macedonia” that they are all wrong. Identity is an individuals right, whether it be religious, sexual, or cultural, Macedonian’s of all backgrounds don’t care what you want to call them. They know who they are. Your denial of an identity and the human right of self identification only makes a mockery of the supposed modern, democratic, European state which you yourself identify with. Alexander an ancient Macedon, Samuel a Bulgarian Tsar, and Mother Teresa an ethnic Albanian are all important figures in the history of Macedonia. Macedonia, Macedonians and their history is as diverse as the ethnic make up of the region. Go to The Republic Of Macedonia, visit the prehistoric Kokino observatory, see Philip II’s Herculea at Bitola, revel in the many religious sites of Ohrid once the capital and stronghold of the Bulgarian Empire and you will realise (like those that live in Macedonia) that ‘Macedonia’ and being ‘Macedonian’ is more than a ridiculous notion of a supposed pure, unadulterated, biological continuity from a kingdom over 2000 years ago. Nationalism is indeed dangerous, yet there is only one state sponsored denial of human rights and attempted monopolisation of an identity and name in this issue. You say that Gruevski ‘works hard to deny the ethnicity of Greeks’ and that ‘History shows a clear manipulation of facts’ give us examples, back up your argument. What is ‘his ludicrous plan’? The nationalist paradigm that comes from the Hellenic Republic is always full of vague, paranoid, and hysterical statements. Here in London this past week we’ve held the Olympics, (thanks for that ancient Greece). Mohamed Farah, a Muslim man who was born in Somali, and moved to Britain at aged 8 won 2 gold medals. Do we deny him his decision of self identification? Because he can’t trace his ethnicity back 2000 years to the time of bronze and beaker pottery, are we to rip the Union Jack from his sports kit? No because the British Isles, like Macedonia is made up of all sorts of cultures, religions, narratives, and identities. Accept the complexities of people traveling across continents and time. Its time to look beyond ancient kingdoms and long dead despots, start living and communicating in the modern, democratic, free Europe you purport to be part of.

    • August 15, 2012 at 8:53 pm
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      Interestingly enough you have made a very good point. I’m not sure you meant to but you have chanced upon a great example of how both ethnic groups and the narratives that grow up around them are fluid. To use your example of Northern France if I may; Cornouaille is a historic region in Brittany, in northwest France, Cornwall is an English county across the channel. There is a relationship between the two ethnic groups, they share a similar language, and Brittany used to be known in English as Little Britain to distinguish it from Great Britain. We know that we share elements of our identity, and no one will try an monopolise the name, the term Briton, Breton, Britan, or Brittany. The King Arthur myth was in part created by French poets of the Romantic period, in the poem ‘Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart’, by Chrétien de Troyes we are introduced to Lancelot and his adulterous relationship with Arthur’s queen. Complicated isn’t it? A shared narrative, myth and complex history not confined to national borders. Some people refer to London as France’s sixth biggest city. The French consulate in London estimates between 300,000 and 400,000 French citizens live in the British capital. Britain recognises this minority, and rejoices in it. We don’t deny them the use of their language or culture, we even have the Third constituency for French residents a region that elected its first ever representative at the 2012 French legislative election. The two examples you use of post war and cold war politics are in my opinion irrelevant in the stance that the Greek government takes over its denial of human rights. Both examples you give are of a time when the threat of Communist expansion in the Balkans would have led powers such as the US and the UK to side with states such as Greece. That threat from Communism doesn’t exist anymore, perhaps that is why America and Britain have both recognised Macedonia by its constitutional name.

      • August 15, 2012 at 9:43 pm
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        Red herring. The places that share names typically do not attempt to wholesale usurp the identity of people of another nation or have government officials encourage there citizens to see someone else’s country as occupied.

        This is why Greece has never objected to Macedonia or Athens USA.

        However this is not the case with you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarian who clearly abuse the name to insinuate not only massive sections of our country belong to you but even our very identity.

        Sorry frosty. You very well know the majority of you are direct descendents of Bulgarians. You had an identity and there was no reason to come after ours. Its not the fault of Greeks you oppress that and continue to play these name games with us. You could just as easily called yourselves Bulgarians again (or something else entirely unencumbered by history) to avoid these problems but instead you wanted to continue the Balkan wars, WW2, and cold war conscious IMRO propaganda games. These are your choices not ours. Take moral responsibility for your own mistakes instead of trying to constantly blame Greeks.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhMiXV7814

        • August 15, 2012 at 11:03 pm
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          If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be a ‘direct descendents of Bulgarians’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

        • August 15, 2012 at 11:08 pm
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          @Frosty – You are just repeating canned statement.

          Trying to repeatedly whitewash FYROM’s manipulative atttempts to usurp our identity and rampent irredenism shows you are the one that isn’t concerned with human rights.

          At lest check Greece is a sovereign country not the property of the FYROM government. Every word you use to apologize for fascist ultra nationalists in FYROM is you spitting on the human rights you claim to support. At last check Greeks have human rights too.

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:18 am
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    @ Frosty. That’s great. At least you acknowledge that Alexander was Greek, Samuel was Bulgarian and Mother Teresa was Albanian. ThatKs a good start. Now start putting the pressure on Gruevski’s government to do the same.

    Bitola or Monastiri, is the only part of ancient Macedonia in FYROM. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were driven out of there in 1913.

    Ludicrous claims? I dont have enough space, but here are a few to start with:
    1) The Rosetta Stone Demotic Egyptian is really the Mecedonian language, proving the continuity of your race. Every historian and liguist in the past 200 years was wrong.
    2)You are Makenoids, the fathers of the white race
    3) The Greeks destroyed all evidence of the true macedonian language and culture of Alexander the Great. The Ancient Macedonians were Slavs not Greeks.
    4)Skopje DNA sponsored studies show you are decendants of the ancients (non published studies of course, but still referred to as fact)

    All ludicrous, and all supported and sponsored by the government in Skopje.

    • August 15, 2012 at 10:51 am
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      Good morning Akron. Take the time and read my post carefully, dont rush headlong into the tired hysterical diatribe, the basis for your denial of human rights, you will see that your reply confirms my points. I state ‘Alexander an ancient Macedon, Samuel a Bulgarian Tsar, and Mother Teresa an ethnic Albanian’ at no point do I call Alexander The Great Greek. Its for historians to debate whether the long dead civilisation Macedon/ancient Macedonia was part of the group of sometimes waring city states known as Ancient Greece, or was it a region more complicated, different? Alexander along with Tsar Samuel and Mother Teresa amongst others are individuals who modern Macedonia sees as important in the formation of their modern European republic. Whether you or I disagree with this identification is irrelevant. If modern Greece (declared in 1822) wants to identify with a kingdom who subjugated Athens and Thebes at The Battle of Chaeronea 338BC fine no one should disagree. As an English man I don’t identify with St. George a Roman soldier from Syria Palaestina, and yet there are many images of him all over my country, and many who feel he is an important part of their identity. By your argument we should be pulling down statues, burning art, and renaming our flag. So Bitola was the only part of Macedonia that was part of Macedon. Presumably the ancient Macedonians ignored the 25k between Herculea and the modern Greek border, they weren’t interested in the land to the east and west. Your biggest ignorance however is the vague, paranoid, and hysterical statements that I mentioned in my previous post. Your list of ‘Ludicrous claims’ (previously ‘his ludicrous plan’ presumably you couldn’t demonstrate any plan as such) are baseless, where are your sources? where is the evidence of these state sponsored claims? Dont complain of not having ‘enough space’ look at my post (I tend to go on). Or are you just spouting the nationalistic, hysterical, vague, paranoid propaganda used to deny an entire modern European nation its human rights. We want specifics. We want evidence not just hear say. Not just selective events look to the other side; ‘Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were driven out’, what of the Macedonians forcibly removed from Northern Greece last century? What of the minority that remain and the refusal to recognise their identity by their own government? The history of the region known as Macedonia is varied and vast. The ebb and flow of cultures, religions, and politics has been great during these times all should recognise this. To use one brief debated period of history to monopolise an identity (from either side), to deny a modern, democratic, European state its place in the modern world is shameful. Discuss, debate, acknowledge the past but don’t let it hold you or others back.

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:24 am
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    Overall I agree with you, but you know that your government doesn’t see things the way you do. They fabricate ancient history to make claims on Greece and Bulgaria. That is why a simple name change is necessary. Northern Macedonia is fair and allows the Greeks and Bulgarians to see themselves as something different than you. It doesn’t monopolize the name, and it helps to curb irredentism by referring to the area geographically.

    • August 15, 2012 at 5:03 pm
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      I don’t agree with you Akron. It is not “fair” to accept any Macedonia in FYROM;s name (aka ancient Paeonia). This so-called “compromise” was artificially manufactured entirely due to unprincipled patronizing anti-hellenic trolls that pressured Greece. I would note now that FYROM ultra nationalists have turned into “ancient Macedonians” and constantly insinuate Greece is occupied territory (which we warned would happen)…these same sorts of pretenious sorts that lectured Greeks now pretend not to notice their behavior (and some even trying to narrate Greek out of ethnic existence with pomo deconstructive gibberish to hide their shame).

      Even from a practical standpoint any reference to Macedonia in the former Yugoslavians name (mostly former ethnic Bulgarians) isn’t even a practical long term solution. FYROM ultra natioanlists have shown their cards by building giant Alexander statues and constantly moving the bar. Referencing them “Macedonian” in any shape or form will only drag on the issues perpetually.

      Blame Greece for its government fiances. For FYROM it is entirely fault of FYROM and its smug Greek hating apologists.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:27 am
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    As long as the skopjian authorities invent their ID by building statues that are of either Greek, Bulgarian, and indigenous Albanians, they will always instill suspicion.

    The Slavs of FYROM who came here to our land around 700-900AD are said by our indigenous Albanian ancestors to have always called themselves Bulgars. Now that the modern skopjian leadership has towed the Titoist party line to invent and create a new ID out of the mostly Bulgarian speaking Slavs of our land is nothing new.

    The only problem is that only the skopjian authorities and their army of jingoists don’t see it. They believe that they can build their identity out of cheap concrete and iron.

    So much for the ancestors of the skopjian authorities who when they first came to our lands in their animal skins and primitive culture were accepted by the indigneous Albanians here and the Greek tribes to the south. They were civilised here accepting our Balkan cuisines, folklore, customs, traditonal linen clothes, etc. Even the Slavic peasants today still dress in our traditonal indigenous clothes with those ancient Illyrian and Paeonian designs on them and found around on many archaeological sites that reveal our Illyrian iconograhy.

    The Bulgarians speak of the skopjian authorities in the same manner that the skopjian government does of them. For example, the skopjians leadership also denies the huge Bulgarian identity among their people, so what is the difference. Possibly the skopjian leadership has to also pull its finger out and instead of taking a wiff of their own behinds, smell the roses on the other side of nationalistic jingoism.

    ‘First you have to respect, before you are respected’ is an ancient Illyrian saying still retold by the indigenous Albanians here. Yes respect is lacking here in FYROM but what else is new?

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:42 am
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    By the way I agree with Frosty that the people here in FYROM should be correctly and most importantly considered as being from all backgrounds, e.g. Bulgarians, indigenous Albanians, Vlachs, Greeks, Turks, and Roma gypsies. And as such these are the real representaives of the historical narrative here and not some neo-Titoist ethnicity, but rather a regional nationality, such as the British, Americans, Swiss, etc.

    If people and especially the skopjians leadership would accept FYROM’s ethnic diversity and respect the fundamental rights of our indigenous Albanian people it woulsd indeed be a better place for us all.

  • August 15, 2012 at 3:40 am
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    for a country that has had democracy since 1974 a lot of stuff gets said about how long you have had a country. Please worry about year land and not worry about the macedonians.The greeks always lived near the sea. Bitola, is not near water.GREEK FARMER: someone who sits at a cafana …sips ouzo….watching his olive tree grow.

  • August 15, 2012 at 7:29 am
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    A fellow is mentioning the name (Yunan-Yunanistan) for the Greeks used in the East languages, Arabs, Afghans ,Persians , Indians, Jews, Kurds,Turks .as something new and unusual to his ignorance .The word “YUNAN” stands for” Ionians” one of the 4 Hellenic tribes (Ionians , Dorians, Aeolians and Achaeans) In the narrowest sense, it was used of the region of Ionia in Asia Minor since many Ionians emigrated to the coast of Asia Minor, founding the historical region of Ionia.The Persians named the Macedonians “Yunan takabara” meaning Ionians (greeks) with a helmet like a buckler. Later the Turks also called the Greeks “Yunan”until today ,along with all east world ,educate your self firstly mr Peter before giving history lessons !

  • August 15, 2012 at 11:11 am
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    The same slavs(Blgarin)in FYROM asking from the Greek to give “forgiveness” for the slavomacedonians communists in Greek civil war 1949 Yesterday,They were very upset, using words full of hate against to their ethnic albanian compatriots. because the fyrom minister of defence mr Fatim Besimi(ethnic albanian) gave a honor to UCK fighters being killed in kumanovo on FYROM’s civil war 2000

  • August 15, 2012 at 12:00 pm
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    Mr frosty(i hope not in mind)!!! since you live in a great country England i will advice you before making “historical references” about ancient battles like Chaeronea in 338 bc ,to read first the Britannica encyclopedia to see what was the purpose of this battle and what influence had in Greek affairs ( see Corinthian league) and 2nd that, ancient Greeks fought each other for domination over ancient Greek world without considering their opponents as non greeks . i will tell you that Athens fought with Sparta for more that 40 years Thiba also fought with Athens ect .Also after Alexander’s death the macedonians diadochi fought each other with two bloody wars. BBC tv had a documentary last year about this “paradox of the ‘Greek Thing ” explaining how the ancient greeks were together as brothers and in the same time were different as enemies , ofcourse those are “greek” to you because your “history education”and your mentality is coming from slavic diaspora falsifiers who “brain-washing” the poor slavs!!!

    • August 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm
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      Thank you MITSOS you have made my point for me. Ancient history, is ancient history. My historical reference was to show how peoples of all cultures can use dead civilizations and despots from over 2000 years ago to create, and justify their own identity. The arguments that come from the nationalistic Hellenic paradigm, the way in which they imply a pure unadulterated biological link to ancient races and the use of this to monopolise an ethnic identity, in my view are wrong. I would at no point deny you these thoughts, as that is your human right to self determination and yet you would use them to deny others. I am fascinated by ancient history but it has very little relevance to how we, members of supposed European democracies must deal with one another here today in 2012. I saw that documentary as well, Richard Miles the historian who presented said programme referred to Philip Of Macedon and his son Alexander as a ‘dynasty of outsiders’ in relation to ancient Greece, complex isn’t it. The most interesting paradox in regards to the ‘Greek thing’ in my mind is the fact that ancient Greece consisted of many tribes, and minorities. Each with their different political and belief systems, differences that could often lead to war. And yet today we are supposed to accept from those who would readily rejoice in Ancient Greece that contemporary Greece, The Hellenic Republic is ethnically homogenous; a united, simple, pure, biologically exact society with direct ethnic links to the fractious, conflict prone tribal Ancient Greece city states… makes you think. Again if you feel empathy and sympathy for these ancient groups, no one should deny you that association. This however must go for all. My ‘mentality’ comes from various places; University, Books, Papers all sorts of media. Empirical evidence is the most important area for me though; to be able to hear the thoughts and fears of all involved in this issue. Just as I have experienced the prejudice of those who would deny a nation its identity, I have also met Macedonians who don’t care what you want to call them they just want the right to get on in the modern free democratic continent that the Greek right wing would prevent them form joining.

      As an aside please give us some more information in regards to what Mr. Fatmir Besimi actually said, and what exactly happened ‘yesterday’ I can’t find any reference to this intriguing yet extremely confusing and vague post.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:07 pm
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        BBC documentary does not separate the ancient macedonians from the “greek thing ” if that was Richard Miles impresion as you say .he wouldn’t include the macedonians in “greek paradox thing” . LOL ! “the macedonian royal family be a ‘dynasty of outsiders’” My friend how that can be possible???? how the royal family can be non greeks when they claim brave GREEK ancestry from timenides family in Argos peloponnisos descendants of Herakles (Argead dynasty) wake up my frient from your darkness !!!the rest you are mentioning of what you are thinking about ancient greeks ,is not the time to give you history lessons but open some english book to educate your self, also pay attention on documentary title it is “the greek thing” not the “greek think”

        • August 15, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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          [email protected]@@i dont speak “oxford english” i presume neither you . BUT I THINK the word “outsider” in english means also the person we dont like around us .or the person who has no important role in a subject ! yes or no? in greek language we say “παρείσακτος” and its true that philp and macedonians were considered as second class by south greeks thus “outsiders” but not “foreigners” if you see bbc documentary you will see that says …..the outsiders…… philip unites the greek fractions..and his son alexander will carry the greek thing forward in his macedonian spear … my friend i lost my time with you you need english language teacher not historian !!

          • August 15, 2012 at 9:35 pm
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            Brilliant! Criticised for my use of English…

            ‘my friend i lost my time with you you need english language teacher not historian !!’

            That should read: ‘My (capital M) friend I (capital I) have (or I’ve) lost my time with you, (comma or full stop, your choice) you need an (determiner) English (capital E) language teacher not historian !!’

            My spelling and grammar are by no means perfect. This is not the point of this forum. I apologise, I couldn’t resist. I hope I’ve helped.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:20 pm
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          Hello! you obviously haven’t read my post carefully enough. You state ‘pay attention on documentary title it is “the greek thing” not the “greek think”’. Take a deep breath, read it again and tell me where I have written ‘greek think’. I don’t think you should be drawing attention to the use of written English in these posts. I could point out your misuse of a full stop ‘as you say .he wouldn’t’, your failure to use the word ‘the’ ‘BBC documentary does not’, your spelling error of friend as ‘frient’. I could adopt your discursive style, I could go on, but your failure to use English properly is not the issue. My point wasn’t to claim Philip and Alexander for any particular power or group. I was trying to demonstrate that a history, a narrative and some say myth can be used by ALL to try and monopolise a name or identity. In my humble opinion the use of Alexander and his history to deny a modern European democracy its base human right of self determination is utterly wrong.

          please I repeat my request, give us some more information in regards to what Mr. Fatmir Besimi said, and what exactly happened ‘yesterday’.

          • August 16, 2012 at 10:50 am
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            “thing” and “think” It was a personal philological pun , to show you that seemingly same words have different meanings !(remember the talks about ‘the outsiders’). However you have write correctly the title of bbc documentary. I expect,you have understood and the meaning how much “outsider” was Alexander the great for hellenism!! .Ofcourse i don’t speak -write advanced english , since my education is exclusively hellenic. i made critics to your english since ,regardless the claim that you are a native british (?) your language quality is rather poor with bad spelling in a sence that “language mistakes” can be understood by a foreigner like me language is the treasure of each nation .I wouldn’t permit to my self to make language mistakes in my hellenic language talking in a public forum! Finaly , about the skopian minister who pay honor to uck monument , and the reactions from the slavic side , you can get all the information you need just reading the fyrom’s media in english editions or in their bulgarian idiom if it is understood by you!!

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:51 pm
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        @frosty

        “all cultures can use dead civilizations and despots from over 2000 years ago to create, and justify their own identity.”

        If you meant it you would be spending most of your time criticizing the current ultra FYROM government (and the people that supported them) for constantly manipulatively trying to portray themselves as descendents of ancient Macedonians… rather than just criticizing Greeks.

        Sorry Frosty. Not buying the stalling and manipualtive misuse of of words ‘human rights’ and “minorities” any longer. You are an ultra nationalist just like Gruvski.

        Stop oppressing evidence of FYROM’s primarily ethnic Bulgarians past and change the name of FYROM (since FYROM are the one that keeps claiming it is just a name) Then we can talk. Until them I don’t believe anything that comes out of the mouth of ultra nationalist manipulators like you.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:44 pm
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          If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be an ‘ultra nationalist just like Gruvski.’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 9:56 pm
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            @frosty – False floggers online are a dime a dozen. Someone can even claim to be “British” but actually have ethnic roots from the Balkans.

            Even on the chance you are ethnically British i would first learn past British stances on this issue before lecturing Greeks on it because the current British goernment (and even some in the media) are a bunch of unprincipled anti-Hellenic trolls that dishonestly hide information like this from the British people.

            It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” – Edward O’Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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            @frosty

            Again anyone can claim anything what they want about their alleged heritage online. I know first hand countless FYROM nationalists pretend to be other ethnic groups as a form of trickery. (to show how they are objective) Given your selective blindness it is clear you are either a FYROM natioanlist or a patronzing bigot with SEVERE prejudices against Greeks.

            However even running with your claim that you are “English”… how do you the England would react if northern France started to reference itself as “ethnic English”? Claimed King Henry their national hero? Redeclared a french dialect “English”? Encouraged its citizens to see 1/3 of the UK as occupied? And claimed Britian was persecuted the “Ethnic English minority in British occupied England”?

            You think Cameron would have “recognized” such bizarre and dangerous behavior? I think we both know the answer to that you pretentious Greek hating manipulator.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:50 pm
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    Haha. Frosty your true agenda reveals itdelf. You go back to ancient history to justify your claim. It’s you who is being histerical.
    If self identity is such a fundamental right, why do you deny Alexander’s right to identify as a Greek? He did so several times, even outlining his dorian ancestry.
    You can call yourself Macedonian, but don’t take away your grandfathers right and self proclamation that he was Bulgarian. That’s being hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
    And evidence? Just google the topics you lazy idiot. For example, when a government scientist on the government payroll publishes a study that the Demotic Egyptian on Rosetta Stone is really your very own Bulgarian dialect I would considere that government sponsored. When a ten minute add featuring the voice of the devil comes on your state television and tells the people that you are Makenoids and the fathers of the white race, surely it was sponsored by the government. When public schools have maps that include parts of Greece and Bulgaria, surely the government must have approved them. You play coy, but you are only fooling yourself.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
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      Ah ha Akron! You fail on so many levels. I have claimed nothing. As I said in my earlier post ‘Its for historians to debate whether the long dead civilisation Macedon/ancient Macedonia was part of the group of sometimes waring city states known as Ancient Greece, or was it a region more complicated, different?’. Take your time, read it carefully and try and understand, that statement is not a claim, in fact its a question, hence the question mark. I don’t deny any individual the right to identify themselves even a dead man from over 2000yrs ago. Again calm down and read my post carefully; I am trying to demonstrate the dangers of an assumed and monopolised identity. You say ‘You can call yourself Macedonian, but don’t take away your grandfathers right and self proclamation that he was Bulgarian. That’s being hypocritical wouldn’t you say?’, I certainly wouldn’t say, here are the dangers of an assumed ethnicity. My Grandfathers were both English, I am English, I have no Macedonian heritage what so ever. You fail because you assume that I am Macedonian, that I have an inherent bias. So when you talk of ‘your statue’ and ‘your own governmenbt’ you demonstrate the furious ignorance that clouds your ability to understand someone elses point of view. If you were calm and collected and had an ounce of objectivity you might have spotted the clues in my previous post; I talked of a British athlete and how ‘we’ do not deny his identity, I refer to myself, ‘As an English man’ I even send you greetings from ‘multicultural multiethnic Britain’. You’re so wrapped up in your hatred, lack of understanding and fear for the liberties and expression that the modern world can afford you that you fail to listen and understand the very person you argue with and insult. What a pleasant individual you are; you call me a ‘lazy idiot’ and refer to me and what you wrongly thought my people as ‘snivelling cowards the whole lot of you’. I have googled these topics and yet all I seem to find is similarly hysterical, bizarre, paranoid rantings from other human rights denying extremists. You still don’t give specifics, you still spout alarmist statements with no reference to anything factual; you say ‘surely it was sponsored by the government’, ‘surely’ is not the language of definition rather doubt. Give us some bonafide facts so that we might have a proper discussion and raise this whole conversation above the use of cheap insults and vague assumptions.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:56 pm
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        @frosty

        You care nothing for facts except facts that suit your narrative as “Macedonian”. Given your language, culture, history, last names, it is blatantly obvious you are not “ethnic Macedonians”. When you lying ultra nationalist hypocrites stop oppressing evidence of your ethnic Bulgarian past and stop calling yourselves “Macedonians” then Greeks can start taking your arguments more seriously.

        Identity is a human right frosty. Not identity theft. You former ethnic Bulgarians need to find your own path not steal the identity of others.

        “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:53 pm
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          Please its getting boring now. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. How can I be a ‘lying ultra nationalist.’ when I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:04 pm
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            @frosty

            Again anyone can claim anything what they want about their alleged heritage online. I know first hand countless FYROM nationalists pretend to be other ethnic groups as a form of trickery. (to show how they are objective) Given your selective blindness it is clear you are either a FYROM natioanlist or a patronzing bigot with SEVERE prejudices against Greeks.

            However even running with your claim that you are “English”… how do you the England would react if northern France started to reference itself as “ethnic English”? Claimed King Henry their national hero? Redeclared a french dialect “English”? Encouraged its citizens to see 1/3 of the UK as occupied? And claimed Britian was persecuted the “Ethnic English minority in British occupied England”?

            You think Cameron would have “recognized” such bizarre and dangerous behavior? I think we both know the answer to that you pretentious Greek hating manipulator.

  • August 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm
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    And in a previous post you said that 133 countries regognize you as being Macedonia. How do you feel that the vast majority support the name negotiations? Or that not one of those countries agrees with your countries attempt to link itslef to the ancient Greeks? Isn’t that why you call your statue of Alexander “man on a horse”? Because your own governmenbt wouldn’t dare say your people are linked to the ancient Greeks publicly. Like snivelling cowards the whole lot of you.

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:31 pm
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      I hope 133 countries don’t recognise me as Macedonian! I might have my British passport removed. The statue in the center of Skopje (the capital of The Republic Of Macedonia) is called ‘Warrior On A Horse’, come on Akron any ‘lazy idiot’ could google and find out what the statues actual name is. This is the bit I am confused about in one post you say ‘Because your own governmenbt wouldn’t dare say your people are linked to the ancient Greeks publicly’ but in your previous post you say ‘a government scientist on the government payroll publishes a study that the Demotic Egyptian on Rosetta Stone is really your very own Bulgarian dialect I would considere that government sponsored. When a ten minute add featuring the voice of the devil comes on your state television and tells the people that you are Makenoids and the fathers of the white race, surely it was sponsored by the government. When public schools have maps that include parts of Greece and Bulgaria, surely the government must have approved them.’ Which is it? Either its a public declaration on the TV in schools, or published or its the actions of what you call ‘snivelling cowards’ You can’t have it both ways. Thats not to say that these are actually rambling, general unsubstantiated comments that are disregarded as quickly as you read them. Respect to you though Akron you really are very passionate about Ancient Macedonians and Greeks, its just a shame that this energy is channeled into understanding the modern world and those you fear across the border in The Republic Of Macedonia.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:32 pm
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        As I recall… all these people that “recognized” you former Bulgarians as “Macedonians” was back when your politicians were assuring them you weren’t related to ancient Macedonians? The very fact some of your apologists pretend not to notice your sudden change and irredentism… reveals them as Greek-hating bigots.

        • August 15, 2012 at 9:57 pm
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          Don’t get excited but your right I’m not ‘related to ancient Macedonians’. I am however not a former Bulgarian either. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:13 pm
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            Anyone can claim anything online.

            And if you cared about human rights you would denounce FYROM’s blatantly obvious state propaganda and irreddentism rather than apologizing for it.

  • August 15, 2012 at 2:08 pm
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    Here is Alexandre self Identifying as Greek:
    “For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery.” (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

    “Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably.” (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

    “Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know.” (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])

    The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia… Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos”
    (Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)

    “But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
    so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place.”
    (Herod. V, 22, 2)

    The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games “Men of Athens…
    Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery….
    If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.
    I am Alexander of Macedon.”
    (Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

    • August 15, 2012 at 4:43 pm
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      Hooray! Selective quotes from ancient texts. The last bastion of those who see the life of Alexander The Great as all there is to being Macedonian. Macedonian history is more than the actions of a self proclaimed god from 2000 yrs ago.
      I keep saying I’m not concerned with ancient history, its the here and now that is more important.

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:22 pm
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        @frosty – cry your crocodile tears to the fish who believed you fascist manipulators (imo due to their prejudices against Greeks)

        The cold war fact is while FYROM ultra nationalists like you constantly pretend not to be concerned with ancient history… the FYROM government (and massive numbers of citizens) name everything in site after ancient Greek historical figures and teaches its children they are the descendents of ancient Macedonians. (see giant Alexander stutue, airports, roads, building, cities, even their children names are now “Alexander” and “philip”).

        • August 15, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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          I’m not crying, more like laughing. If you’ve read my posts in a calm and objective manner you’ll know that I am in no way Macedonian, I am British. I am observing a situation in the continent in which I live. You say ‘ultra nationalists like you’ and yet I am not part of the Macedonian nation. I am simply someone who considers Greece’s state sponsored denial of human rights as an unreported crime here in a modern, supposedly inclusive European community.

          I better let my friend Philip know that he should be changing his name. I wouldn’t want my mate Phil offending your delicate, extremist, right wing psyche.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:24 pm
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            @frosty

            Anyone can put ‘human rights’ in their sentences you manipulative Greek hating troll. Instead of hiding behind words why don’t you instead explain why FYROM”s officials meant when they used to say…

            “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

            And what did the US government (and British) mean when it used to claim this about FYROM’s “Macedonian” heritage?

            “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)
            http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:26 pm
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            @frosty

            Sure buddy. The issue is just about a name.. rather they their attempt to usurp our very identity and insinuate our country is “Greek occupied Macedonia”. You would have made a fine communist propagandist for Tito and company.

          • August 15, 2012 at 10:29 pm
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            @frosty

            I am not “far right”. I am actually a centrist. The words “human rights’ and “minorities” is just another tact that Greek hating bigots like you use to try and cover up your shame now that FYROM nationalist propagandists are trying to narrate themsevesl into “ancient Macedonians”, insinuate Greece is “occupied”, and even ethnically erase the Greek people. Evil thugs like you are disgrace to human rights.

            ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:38 pm
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        The majority of historians claim ancient Macedonians self-identified as Greeks. Even the minority that don’t see ancient Macedonians as Hellenes (like Borza who bizarrely claims otherwise on some sort of mysterious racial theory he subscribes too).. do not deny ancient Macedonians became an indistinguishable part of the rest of the Greek population. OTher than FYROM natioanlist ones… no historian on earth claim today’s FYROM’s slavic inhabitants nationalists are descendents of ancient Macedonians. Unfortunately this is precisely what is bizarrely taught in FYROM’s schools today by fanatic Gruevski *and supported by ultra nationalist fronts like MHRMI and AMHRC that put ‘human rights’ in their sentences to fool the well meaning).

        • August 15, 2012 at 7:44 pm
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          i want to add that the ” heretic” Borza the most “quoted” historian by the skopians nationalists slavs …. is mentioning that the modern “macedonians” in fyrom are pure slavs and have no link with ancient macedonians ,also he recognizes that the royal family of ancient macedon kingdom were from greek origins .ofcourse he has other option for ordinary ancient macedonians as balkan mixture tribes but his view is minority among scholars

          • August 16, 2012 at 7:52 pm
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            @akron

            It;s rather humorous that FYROM and its pretentious Greek-hating apologists use Borza as a source pro-FYROM’s cause. The clearly don’t know Borza’s view very well.

            Borza argument is essentially that the ancient Macedonian form of government and foreign cultural influences made them different enough to distinguish from the rest of ancient Greek states at a certain juncture in history.

            However… even Borza doesn’t actually deny Macedonians self-identified as Hellenes. He has even written they were plausibly colonialists descended from other Greek states. He also acknowledges they eventually became an indistinguishable part of the rest of the Greek speaking world.

            While FYROM’s and its apologists bizarrely use Borza as a source pro their cause.. this is what Borza actually says about FYROM’s fabricated “Macedonian” identity.

            “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.” – Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”

            As far as I can tell essentially no accredited historian on earth claims modern FYROM nationalists are in any meaningful related to ancient Macedonians or ancient Macedonians were Slavic (presumably they would be ridiculed by their academic peers). The only ambiguity over the matter exists among FYROM and its crackpot Greek-hating supporters (who claim to speak for ancient history…. yet I would note in the here and now dishonestly pretend not to notice or downplay FYROM’s sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and rampant irredentism)

      • August 15, 2012 at 5:39 pm
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        You claim you are not concerned with ancient history but don’t speak out against a FYROM government that had named everything in sight after ancient Greek historical figures? Giant Alexander statues are rather hard to miss no?

  • August 15, 2012 at 3:54 pm
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    AKRON @Ancient authors “quotes” for brainwashed slavs has no use .However i want add for you one “incident” from Arrianos book 1 “alexandroy anabasis” paragraph 11 which is not well known ,since it has many story back so you must be familiar with homeric era .In this quote Arrian says that Just Alexander foot on the land of asia he made a sacrifice on protesilaos grave in order to avoid to have the same luck with him .Protesilaos was the first Greek who foot on the land of asia during Troian war and being the first killed!! We can see that Alexander compares the first greek (Protesilaos) who foot on asia to conquer Troia ,with his self as the first greek who want to conquer Asia and ofcourse didn’t like to have the same luck i attach the quote in prototype.. ἐλθὼν δὲ ἐς Ἐλαιοῦντα θύει Πρωτεσιλάῳ ἐπὶ τῷ τάφῳ τοῦ Πρωτεσιλάου, ὅτι καὶ Πρωτεσίλαος πρῶτος ἐδόκει ἐκβῆναι ἐς τὴν Ἀσίαν τῶν Ἑλλήνων τῶν ἅμα Ἀγαμέμνονι ἐς Ἴλιον στρατευσάντων. καὶ ὁ νοῦς τῆς θυσίας ἦν ἐπιτυχεστέραν οἷ γενέσθαι ἢ Πρωτεσιλάῳ τὴν ἀπόβασιν…. arrianos alexandroy anabasis book 1 par.11 The FYROM’s Slavs just woke up from the communist night believing that WORLD was born just yesterday!!!

  • August 15, 2012 at 5:45 pm
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    The ancient Macedonians self identified as Greeks. Spoke and wrote Greek, believed in Greek gods,participated in the Greek only Olympic games, launched a war againt Persia in the name of Greece, and for revenge of the Persian attack that took place 200 years prior. They spread Greek culture and philosophy. What more needs to be said?

    Selective quotes? Go ahead and deny Alexander’s right to self determination you hypocrit.

    • August 15, 2012 at 8:58 pm
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      @akron – Notice how Peter tries to constantly insinguate he’s related to acneint Macedonians… while Frosty who claims he is against it pretends he doesn’t notice and goes on an on about Greeks?

      This is the way ultra nationalist manipulators like MHRMI/AMHRC work. They pretend to care about “human rights” and “minorities” to fool the well meaning (along with any Greek hating bigots) but what they are actually doing is stalling to give ultra nationalist fanatics like Peter (Gruevski-bot) the chance to declare themselves descendents of ancient Macedonians and encourage irredentism against Greeks.

      Meanwhile FYROM’s Greek-hating apologists try to hide their mistaken recognition behind the fact many countries, media organizations, and even self-proclaimed human rights organizations bought into their ultra nationalist propaganda.

      Those legitimately concerned with human rights would not sacrifice the Greek people to cover up their shame. They would put the human rights of Greeks ahead of their mistakes.

      • August 15, 2012 at 10:11 pm
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        Thank you, I’ve notice Peter’s post. Its up to him what he calls himself, what identity he feels he has. That is the Human right of self determination. The same right that The Greek state (not the people, I don’t hate Greeks before you cry foul) denies.

        • August 16, 2012 at 6:51 pm
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          @Frosty – the fact you just repeat the same empty moral theories while glossing over FYROM’s abuse of the name to insinauate MY homeland is occupied shows you have no concern whatsoever for human rights. You are a Greek hating bigot.

  • August 15, 2012 at 5:48 pm
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    Peter, you should follow up about the incidents that took place after the show. The couple sued and won the money. They proved two things, that Alexander was Greek, and that the person responsible for the wrong answer on the show was a Skopjian slav. He lost his job. LOL

  • August 15, 2012 at 6:01 pm
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    Peter, I hope some of the posts above have served to educate you. The explanation regarding the term Yunan should serve you well.
    The Adams quote you keep repeating is also a fake. You won’t find it anywhere outside of that prpaganda rag called MINA. The same folk who brought you many other fake documents and stories in an effort to prop up your pseudo identity (eg The Rosetta Stone fabrication). Notice how MINA never sourced the quote…it’s because they are the source lol

  • August 15, 2012 at 6:06 pm
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    In practice what FYROM ultra nationalist groups like MHRMI and AMHRC do is claim they aren’t interested expansionism, ancient history, and only the “human rights of Macedonians in Macedonia” to fool Greek hating idiots….and amongst themselves they encourage the exact opposite. (see giant Alexander statue in FYROM)

    No one… no one… who primary concern is ethics and human rights would put their egos ahead of the human rights of Greeks now. They would denouce FYROM’s blatently obvious propaganda and irredentism against Greeks. Anyone that apologizes for FYROM’s today are pretentious Greek-hating jerks trying to cover up their shame

  • August 15, 2012 at 10:47 pm
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    Just to clear something up that seems to detract everyone from the discussion in hand; I am a British national, I live in the city of London, I love fish n’ chips, warm lager, cricket, Eastenders, and I burn very easily. The fact that I come from the United Kingdom might annoy you, but again I only say it like I see. There is only one nation who illegally denies Macedonia its rightful place amongst international organisations (ref. ICJ judgement Dec. 2011). There is only one state sponsored denial of the base human right of self determination in this issue. I don’t think all those from the Hellenic Republic think like this, I don’t hate Greeks. I hope you receive all the help you need in rebuilding your country, your economy, your society. We in the EU should do everything in our power to help Greece, that after all is part of the responsibilities of being part of said organisation. Its just a real shame that the powers that be in Greece can’t live up to those responsibilities and welcome their neighbour The Republic Of Macedonia into the European ideal and community. Respect.

    • August 15, 2012 at 11:17 pm
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      @Frosty – i really don’t care what you claim. I judge by actions not narratives of goodness.

      Given you pretend not to notice FYROM’s sudden identity change into decendents of ancient Macedonians…. pretend not to know the British government used to even MILITARILY support Greece on this issue… pretend not to notice the rampent irredentism… it is clearly you have severe prejudices against Greek.

      You should respect the human rights of Greeks and our national soveignty before lecturing Greeks on ethnic you Greek hating troll. And if you believe national self-determination is such an absolute… rather than obsessively ethnically harassing Greeks…I recommend you start lecturing the former Yugoslavian government for not recognizing the self-determination of the people of Taiwan. Good luck.

      For example here is what your hypocritical “ancient Macedonian” victims that whine on and on about their own self-determination…think about the self-determination of the people of Taiwan.

      “The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan’s accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood”

      http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6315770.html

      • August 16, 2012 at 9:51 am
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        The situation in Taiwan is fascinating. Again I state I am someone who believes that Human rights are paramount. So yes I would criticize The Macedonian government for their inability to recocgnise the Taiwanese people’s right to self determination. But to put it into context I would also criticize the other Countries that do the same Greece and The United Kingdom included.

        • August 16, 2012 at 6:53 pm
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          @Frosty – Then get to work acccusing FYROM and Great Britain as oppressive ethnic denying human rights abusers rather than just obsessively harassing only Greeks.

          • August 17, 2012 at 1:01 pm
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            Set up the forum in regards to The Taiwanese issue and I’ll be there with bells on. Post me the link below.

        • August 17, 2012 at 5:53 pm
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          Gibberish evasiveness to mask your bigotry. There is not a forum on name dispute.. yet you have no problem going on and on about Greeks. You could have equally have spent hours of your time ranting about FYROM no?

    • August 15, 2012 at 11:21 pm
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      The ICJ judges also pretended not to notice FYROM’s sudden identity change into “anicent Macedonians” and rampant irredentism. Sorry. No one has the moral authority to try and narrate Greeks our of our identity and collude with ultra nationalists threatening our borders. It is not a voting issue. Anyone that colludes with FYROM now is evil. Full stop.

      • August 16, 2012 at 12:16 am
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        Just a quick question: Does the ICJs judgement against Greece in December 2011 count as collusion with Macedonia? If yes, does that make just the judges involved in the case evil or the whole international court?

        • August 16, 2012 at 12:49 am
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          Neutrals are neutrals. However anyone that actively colludes with FYROM ultra nationalist I consider evil. I don’t want to condemn the entire Hague but the ICJ judges that voted in FYROM’s favour are patronizing Greek-hating morons.

        • August 16, 2012 at 12:53 am
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          The agreement between FYROM and Greece also included clauses not to steal Greek history, insinuate our country as occucpied, or resort to hostile propaganda. FYROM has blatantly failed on failed on all accounts while its apologists pretend not to notice to hide their shame.

          Someone who put human rights and ethics above their ego would not dishonestly pretend not to notice their sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient macedonians” and rampant irredentism. FYROM apologists are evil.

          “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

        • August 16, 2012 at 12:58 am
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          @frosty

          Here is a quick question for you patronizing Greek hating troll. What did FYROM’s elected government officials mean when they used to claim only a few years ago…

          ‘The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.’ – FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related

          ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

          ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

          “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

        • August 16, 2012 at 1:15 am
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          @frosty

          Get this through your head. Neither You… nor your fascist friends in FYROM… not the ICJ… nor the US government… nor the UN… nor anyone else.. has a moral right to vote Greeks out of ethnic existence.

          I don’t care about how cowards silently collude with FYROM by collectively hiding behind one another. Numbers are morally irrelevant to objective justice. Anyone that actively colludes with FYROM ultra nationalists in their manipulative attempts to ethnically eradicate the Greek people with Macedonia word games is morally culpable for their actions. Genocide is not “human rights” nor something FYROM’s evil apologists can collective vote on.

          • August 16, 2012 at 9:40 am
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            I repeat, I don’t hate Greeks. I hope you receive all the help you need in rebuilding your country, your economy, your society. But with the greatest respect I fail to understand the quite frankly hysterical language coming from the previous posts, you talk as if the enemy is at the gates, words such as ‘Genocide’ should not be used so trivially. I am not saying who if anyone is can claim the Ancient Kingdom Of Macedonia for themselves. As I have stated before it is up to historians to debate and discuss history, I am not a historian. I do however try to show through the interpretations and conflicting sources around such a fluid subject as the history of the region of Macedonia that you can justify many paradigms. You claim Alexander and all that is Macedonian for the modern Greek Republic, great, I am not going to disagree or argue with you. There are some from the Republic Of Macedonia who do the same, rightly or wrongly they build statues, rename roads and airports. But this doesn’t mean that they are poised to wipe the Greek people from the Earth. There are nationalist voices from both sides agreed, but you have to decide which is more important the expression and adherence of Human Rights or a strict, one sided, non discursive view of thousands of years of history (before you get angry that goes for both sides of the argument). For me it is the human rights issue that is paramount. Trolling is foul. See any media on Macedonia on youtube and you’ll see the homophobic and Racist comments from all. Unacceptable. Trolling as I am to understand describes intentionally provocative actions & harassment outside of an online context. Other than my earlier spat with MITSOS over my use of the English language (for which I have apologised), an argument that you’ll see quite bizarrely MITSOS started, I have kept the discussion within the context of the subject. I am not being intentionally provocative, I am just demonstrating a point of view. Some Macedonians would say that the use of the term FYROM is intentionally provocative, but I would argue strongly that this is not the case. You use this term in the context of the debate, it is an expression of what you believe, it is not trolling. In this forum I have been called a coward, a Greek hater, and an idiot amongst other things. I’m not bothered, you can call me what you want, I don’t consider these insults as trolling even though civility should be the tone of this discussion not name calling. It does however tend to degrade your position. With Trolling comes an element on anonimity, whilst I am not going to publish my real name due to the threatening nature of some of the language used in this forum, I will give an ID. This is so you can see what I have written previously and hold me to account. I am therefore surprised at the number of completely Anonymous posts. Apart from anything I can’t tell if its one or many authors of these posts. I apologise if you find the tone of my posts patronising, it was my intention to lighten the debate not to infuriate further. But it is very difficult to do this considering the intransigence that comes from most of the other posts. On another note getting back to the issue at hand; I am confused about the fact that I am seeing many quotes about how Macedonian government officials are stating that they aren’t related to ancient Macedonians. And yet on the other hand the argument is that they are stealing a long dead identity from 2000 years ago. Without trying to anger anyone and with the greatest respect, at what point do people think this process started? I am not being provocative and confrontational, I am genuinely interested and trying to understand the structure and chronology of what I see as the extreme Hellenic argument (don’t get angry I except there is an extreme side to both sides of the argument). Did it start after these comments were made? During The Greek civil war? WWII? The Ilinden? Uprising? At The Congress Of Berlin? Please don’t find offense, I repeat I am genuinely interested to understand the Paradigm that has led to such an unpleasant state of foreign affairs.

          • August 16, 2012 at 6:35 pm
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            @frosty – And I repeat. I don’t believe your claim you don’t hate Greeks. EVeryone and their mother claims to be a good person. I judge people not by their narratives of themselves but by their deeds. Your constant anti-Greek rhetoric here.. and evasiveness around FYROM’s sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and irredentism”… speaks for itself.

          • August 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm
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            The quotes I am showing you are past quotes. FYROM government officials today are trying to insinuate the exact oppsoite.

            You are “confused” because you want to hide your shame rather than be a man an admit you made a mistake. You don’t want to acknowledge the fact Greeks were right all along weh we suggested not to recognzie FYROM as “Macedonians” because they would try to usurp our identity and insinuate our country was “occupied” (see giant Alexander statue in FYROM) You are a bigot more concerned with protecting your ego than human rights. No one legitimately concerned with human rights would step on human rights of Greeks ahead to hide their mistakes in moral and intellectual judgment.

  • August 16, 2012 at 11:39 am
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    MR FROSTY BELOW I ATTACH THE PROLOGUE OF BBC DOCUMENTARY THAT YOU HAVE SEEN AS YOU SAID THE QUESTION IS . DO YOU AGREE WITH MILES OR YOU HAVE OTHER UNDERSTANDING I WANT A CLEAR SHORT ANSWER THANKS “In Richard Miles’s epic story of civilization, there have been plenty of examples of the great men of history, but none came close to the legend of Alexander of Macedon, known to us as ‘the Great’. Uniting the fractious Greek city-states, he led them on a crusade against the old enemy, Persia, and in little more than a decade created an empire that stretched from Egypt in the west to Afghanistan in the east.

    But it was Alexander’s successors, the Hellenistic Kings, who had to make sense of the legacy of this charismatic adventurer. By knuckling down to the hard graft of politics, taxation and public works, they created something far more enduring than a mere legend – they built a civilization.”

    • August 16, 2012 at 12:30 pm
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      Mr.Frosty i am asking you a simple question to see your understanding and your interpretation as spectator of bbc documentary ,thus your credibility to judge as nutral the greek-fyrom dispute in general .As you can see the difference is not JUST A NAME but has many other dimentions one of them is the history of the region which is being falsified by fyrom slavs ! So , what is your opinion of alexander’s legacy? .Acording to bbc documentary what you have seen was alexander the great a non greek? . Were those Hellenistic kings greeks or not? did those ancient figures and their heritage have any link with fyrom people who are undoubtedly slavs ? was ancient macedonia part of ancient greek world ?what the documentary says? my friend i want to see your understanding and if you have any bias .i have noticed that your “understanding” about antiquity is not …..”british” but rather hidden and ambiguous . I am waiting your clarifications !!!

      • August 16, 2012 at 1:25 pm
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        Good afternoon MITSOS.

        I refer you to my previous post:
        ‘It is up to historians to debate and discuss history, I am not a historian. I do however try to show through the interpretations and conflicting sources around such a fluid subject as the history of the region of Macedonia that you can justify many paradigms. You claim Alexander and all that is Macedonian for the modern Greek Republic, great, I am not going to disagree or argue with you. There are some from the Republic Of Macedonia who do the same, rightly or wrongly they build statues, rename roads and airports. But this doesn’t mean that they are poised to wipe the Greek people from the Earth. There are nationalist voices from both sides agreed, but you have to decide which is more important the expression and adherence of Human Rights or a strict, one sided, non discursive view of thousands of years of history (before you get angry that goes for both sides of the argument). For me it is the human rights issue that is paramount.’

        Respect.

        • August 16, 2012 at 4:42 pm
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          @mitso – I find it fascinating how FYROM’s patronizing apologists constantly evade FYROM’s sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient Macedonia” and “united Macedonia” irredentist rhetoric. All historical narratives aside, the very fact these crackpots now do is what made it clear to me they have severe prejudices against Greeks and trying to hide their shame.

          Hey frosty… what did the FYROM government mean when it used to assure everyone this about its so-called “Macedonian” identity?
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

          “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President

          ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

          ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

          “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

          ‘The idea that Alexander the Great belongs to us was at the mind of some outsider groups only. These groups were insignificant in the first years of our independence. But the big problem is that the old Balkan nations have been learned to legitimize themselves through their history. In the Balkans to be recognized as a nation you need to have history of 2,000 to 3,000 years old. Since you (Greece ) forced us to invent a history, we did invent it.’ (FYROM Foreign Minister Denko Maleski – 1991 to 1993)
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlDLmufGHqQ&feature=related

          And what do respected British historians like Robin Fox Lane mean when they things like…

          “Those who live in Skopje and say that that is Macedon and Alexander’s homeland are as IGNORANT and OUTRAGEOUS as if someone was to say that Oxford University was really in Belarus and Oxford was Minsk”
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4usu3ovzBM

      • August 18, 2012 at 4:19 pm
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        TO MR FROSTY…”byzantinology” under quotation marks ,means in hellenic literary speech …. many many words with no conclusion! like your talks my dear fello. However,if you have any question about my field (ancient macedon kingdom) i am here TO EDUCATE YOU with scholars bibliography! maybe i persuade you better than mile’s documentary !!

  • August 16, 2012 at 2:31 pm
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    mr FROSTY, I think my English are enough for you to understand my question .However, i will try again to be more specific . I am not asking you what the nationalists in fyrom or in greece say about Alexander the great and who has the right or not to claim Alexander’s legacy today !! But i am asking you what is your personal understanding as spectator watching this particular documentary on bbc. what mr Mile says in the prologue and in the story ?WHAT YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD was alexander the great an ancient greek king? yes or no?was ancient macedonia part of ancient greek world ? yes or no ?avoiding to answer directly in my question shows an inability and justify what the other reader say against you as “hidden-skopian”you have my sympathy but the dialog must be clear and productive and not ambiguous repeating the same things. At the end i have something interest to you , about how aristotle see the self-identification!!!! but first your answer please !

  • August 16, 2012 at 4:42 pm
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    Alexander The Great from my limited reading was definitely part of the Hellenic world. He was definitely a Macedon or Ancient Macedonian. Whether he and his fellow Macedons considered themselves Greek as such is something I couldn’t tell you. There are many quotes used to claim the rights to his name, image and history. Both sides of the argument whether they be authors, academics, or dubious bloggers (don’t get angry they exist on both sides) have failed to give me a definitive answer. Although one SEEMINGLY neutral source I found of interest is found at this site: http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/article_portraits?page=6 (I don’t like to post websites but this one seemed neutral enough). Question is did Alexander unite the Greek city states or did he subjugate them? My personal answer is ‘I don’t know’. In my view there is no definitive outcome to this debate, I don’t think we will ever be able to say for sure whether Alexander considered himself part of the Greek idea or a Macedonian conqueror and ruler. That is why I think it is utterly pointless to try and monopolise such a figure and time from history to deny an individual’s human rights here in 2012, no matter what organistation or state they are from.

    • August 16, 2012 at 5:47 pm
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      @fROSTY – Incidentally your historical argument doesn’t make any logical sense. (which is another way I know you have prejudices against Greeks despite your claims)

      Lets establish a fact here. Ancient Macedonians SELF-IDENTIFIED as Greeks (as witnessed by their centuries of participation in the then Greek-only ancient Olympic games) The minority of authors that claim them as non-Greeks (e.g. Borza) are doing so by some sort of mysterious racial/cultural difference theory …not their self-identification grounds. Anyone that claims ancient Macedonians were not Hellenes is effectively denying their own self-determination as Hellenes.

      “Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. ” (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia upon being admitted to the Greek-only Olympic games as a self-identifying Greek, Herodotus, Histories, 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

      It would be funny to watch FYROM nationalists (and any of its patronzing Greek hating apologists) go back in time to ancient Pan-Hellenic sporting events and tell ancient Macedonians, Founders of the Hellensistic period, spreaders of the Greek language and culture,they are not “real” Hellenes.

      So why are do FYROM (and its apologists) sudden make the issue of the Hellenic self-identification of ancient Macedonians a murky issue? Why are they oppressing their right to be known as Greeks while lecturing about self-identification? There is no rational consistency in their arguments.

      Furthermore… even running with any bizarre claims that ancient Macedonians did not self-identify as Greeks… does any historian on earth claim they were Slavic? What exactly do ancient Macedonians have to do to do with today’s modern Slavs in FYROM? Different language, different people, different cultural memes, different geography. Where exactly does the “Macedonian” bit come in?

      Seemingly according to the bizarre alleged “human rights” logic of FYROM ultra nationalists (and its apologists) if they move to the America’s they are free to declare themselves “ethnic Mayans” and claim Bulgarian dialect the communists renamed “Macedonia” is actually Mayan script.

      Do you grasp a little how ridiculous FYROM are behaving frosty? Or is your ego too big to consider the possibility a “oppressive ignorant Greek nationalist” might know far far more than you about the issues?

    • August 17, 2012 at 6:12 am
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      mr FROSTLY unfortunatly you still writing your personal ideas and your personal view of ancient “story”,which is identical with nationalists from skopian diaspora ! And not what you have understood from this particular documentary on bbc, that clearly shows the ancient macedonia was part of hellenic world and Alexander as hegemon of all Greek world, united the “fractious” Greeks in a panhellenic “crusade” against their old enemy, the Persia!!(I WROTE EXACTLY MILE’s WORDS).the rest are known to you about the great hellenistic era .I am a historian archaelogist but i didn’t debate with you since you have limited knowledge in history as you have already said. But since you have seen this particular documentary i wanted to know what an ordinary British (??) has understood from this Mile’s story. Unfortunatly again i met a bias person ,who has not the courage to say that ancient macedonians even if they were considered as uncultivated by south greeks undoubtedly the were greeks !!!

      • August 17, 2012 at 8:52 am
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        Good Morning Mr. MITSOS
        You believe history is definitive, fine thats your view and your entitled to it. I view the relationship between ancient history and modern European politics as a fluid and somewhat redundant. Thats my view, in a civilsed world we should respect each others view, we don’t have to agree but we should always respect. I write my ‘personal’ view of history because that is what you asked of me in your previous post; and I quote ‘i am asking you what is your personal understanding’. The BBC documentary, which was very good and demonstrated the paradox of the Ancient Greek world, is only one source. As ‘a historian archaelogist’ you must agree that one needs to look to further evidence of all types to decide upon a definitive narrative. If you feel that you have the security of knowledge and have decided upon what you see as the true nature of Ancient Macedonia and Macedonians great. I am not ‘a historian archaelogist’, and although I love to look into history and what came before, I readily admit I haven’t enough experience in research and evidence to come up with a final answer. As I stated before ‘both sides of the argument whether they be authors, academics, or dubious bloggers (don’t get angry they exist on both sides) have failed to give me a definitive answer’. As ‘a historian archaelogist’ I bow to your superior experience, and will take what evidence you provide into account. Its not a question of ‘courage’ in respects to declaring definitively who the Ancient Macedonians were, as with any debate if your are to persuade another you have to provide the evidence. In regards to this issue no one (yourself included I’m afraid) has provided me with enough evidence either way to convince me ultimately of the nature of the Ancient Macedonian identity. My ‘bias’ is based on all sources including yours. Obviously as a confirmed source and as with any reputable, quotable source I would need to know a little more about your position as ‘a historian archaelogist’. I’m not saying that I doubt your claim to be ‘a historian archaelogist’ quite the opposite I look forward to reading some academic, informed, empirical views. But if I am to fully understand, acknowledge and appreciate your evidence as a historian and archaeologist I will need to know what institution you represent, what papers you may have published, and what digs you have been on for example. I look forward from hearing from you soon. Have a wonderful Friday. Respect – FROSTY

        • August 17, 2012 at 10:34 am
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          mr FROSTY i have just asked your view as a spectator and absolutely nothing more ! your answers are a kind of “byzantinology”…. however if you have any question about my field (ancient macedonia kingdom) i will be happy to answer ,giving the relevant scholar’s bibliography maybe i could convince you with further evidence ….more than Mile’s documentary!!!

          • August 17, 2012 at 11:15 am
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            Hello MITSOS
            I am totally aware that you ‘asked your view as a spectator’. I am confused because in your previous post you seem to be critical by stating ‘unfortunately you still writing your personal ideas and your personal view of ancient “story”’. These two requests, statements, criticisms seem to contradict one another. My view as a spectator, my personal view is all I have given you so I am perplexed as to why you think I’ve given you something else. I’m also not sure what yo are alluding to when you say my answers are a kind of ‘byzantinology’. I don’t think I’ve made any reference to the Byzantine Empire. I would very much welcome any of your work or research you can share with me. As I said before as a confirmed source and as with any reputable, quotable source I would need to know a little more about your position as ‘a historian archaelogist’. I stress I’m not saying that I doubt your claim to be ‘a historian archaelogist’ quite the opposite I’m looking forward to reading some academic, informed, empirical views on ‘ancient macedonia kingdom’. But if I am to fully understand, acknowledge and appreciate your evidence as a historian and archaeologist I will need to know what institution you represent, what papers you may have published, and what digs you have been on for example. Happy Friday.

          • August 17, 2012 at 5:57 pm
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            Why don’t you instead produce a single historian that claims ancient macedonians were Slavic in any shape or form?

            As for the Greek side… here is hundreds of reputable mostly 3rd party historians from around the world. Feel free to contact any one them or reference any of the hundreds and likely thousands of publish works they’ve created.

            On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.”  This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.
            http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html

        • August 17, 2012 at 2:59 pm
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          mr FROSTY do you play words-game? let’s make an example to make things easy. If you were a school kid and you had a personal view for ancient macedons from your books .One day , you were watching as spectator a documentary for ancient macedons on tv ,and the other day you have been asked by your teacher . hey. litle boy what you have understood from this particular documentary ?.will you answer your personal knowledge from your school about ancient macedons that maybe different than documentary ? or you will DESCRIPE to your teacher what was your understanding watching this documentary?? ? I hope now to arrange the matter !”byzantinoloy” with QUOTATION MARKS has nothing to do as a meaning with byzantinology science, don’t you know the purpose of (quotation marks)? what grammar you have learned in your school ?…..anyway this is a hellenic literatural wordplay but i am not going to tell you more search by your own greeks will not educate forever the “barbarians”(joke) my friend it is boring talking the same and the same i will not go on!!!!

          • August 18, 2012 at 11:08 am
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            Afternoon Mr. MITSOS
            My view and interpretation of this documentary is the same as my view and interpretation of the paradoxical Ancient Greek world. I refer you to my earlier posts.

            I stated ‘I’m also not sure what yo are alluding to when you say my answers are a kind of ‘byzantinology’. I don’t think I’ve made any reference to the Byzantine Empire.’. Firstly I genuinely don’t know what your on about. My understanding of the term Byzantinology is that it is a branch of humanities that addresses the history, culture, costumes, religion, art of the Byzantine Empire. I don’t think I have referenced the Byzantine Empire that’s why asked for clarification. Secondly I put byzantinology in quotation marks because I was quoting your previous post, that’s why they are called quotation marks. You your self used quotation marks in your earlier post to quote some one else; and I quote (hence the quotation marks) the ‘what the other reader say against you as “hidden-skopian”’.

            I’m not playing ‘words-game’ (another quote), I am just after some clarification in regards to what you are discussing. I actually find it very hard to understand what you are saying at some points. I’m also trying not to criticize your use of the English language, which you do of mine; ‘what grammar you have learned in your school ?’ (another quote). After all an archaeologist who can’t spell ‘archaelogist'(another quote) would be a far to easy target. Lets move past these word games, lets get back to the case in hand. Wheres some of this research and informed opinion that as a historian and archaeologist you could give me? I’m genuinely interested to hear of what you have found out through your work. Have a wonderful weekend I hope the weather is as nice where you are as it is here in South East London. Respect.

          • August 21, 2012 at 7:15 pm
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            @frosty – You keep making all sort of facinating historical claims but we are still waiting for you to produce evidence of single historian on earth (other than ones from FYROM) that claim ancient Macedonians were Slavic.

            What’s the delay frosty?

  • August 16, 2012 at 5:19 pm
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    Frosty, you are willfully blind.You dismiss the overwhelming evidence that the ancient macedonians were Greek, because it doesn’t fit into your own ethnic identity and narative.

    • August 16, 2012 at 5:51 pm
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      @Akron – Exactly.

      I tries to stay open to the historical and moral arguments but when FYROM and its apologists started to play dumb around FYROM’s sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and “United Macedonia” rhetoric I know they were liars with prejudices against Greeks.

    • August 17, 2012 at 4:54 am
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      You say ‘it doesn’t fit into your own ethnic identity and narative.’. Again I politely point out and with respect I am British, I have no Macedonian ethnic identity.

      • August 17, 2012 at 7:50 am
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        As I said, anyone can claim anything online.

        I really don’t care what you claim. Given your rhetoric against Greeks for protestsing against FYROM’s attempts to usurp our identity and open irredentism you are either FYROM nationalists or a bigot with anti-Greek tendencies. Supporting fascists in FYROM trying to ethnically erase Greeks (in particular Macedonian ones) isn’t “human rights”.

        • August 17, 2012 at 9:01 am
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          Your just going to have to trust me. I a British (Londoner) Human Rights advocate who doesn’t hate Greeks.
          If you really don’t care what I claim, then there is absolutely no point in you reading my posts in future, you can dismiss my viewpoint as soon as you see my name at the top of the post. In which case this isn’t really a forum for debate and discussion, yet more of finger pointing, flag waving, intolerant slanging match; which is a shame.

          • August 17, 2012 at 5:58 pm
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            @Frosty

            Sorry. Given you downplay FYROM’s sudden identity change into “ancient macedonians” and rampant irredentism I don’t trust you. You are an apologist for evil.

          • August 17, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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            @Frosty

            You are pretentious idiot if you think adding “human rights” into your sentences makes you above making mistakes in moral and intellectual judgment on human rights matters.

          • August 17, 2012 at 6:05 pm
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            @frosty

            You care more about preserving your self-righteous gigantic ego then human rights. You would be denouncing FYROM’s government’s propaganda and irredentism rather than ethnically harassing Greeks for warning this would happen. NO country on earth would tolerate this behavior from neighbours you self-righteous bigot.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpFQUH_9VPA

          • August 17, 2012 at 6:35 pm
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            @frosty

            You keep claiming to be “British” while spending HOURS harassing us on this issue? Why aren’t you spending all that time denoucing FYROM nationalist blatantly obvious propaganda instead? They are the ones that have suddenly become “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and are endless insinuating Macedonia Greece is occupied right before your eyes no? Since when is government sponsored irredentism “human rights” you Greek-hating manipulative bigot?

            Furthermore even on the odd chance and your not lying and happen to live in the UK there this does not necessarily mean you are British. You’re ancestors could be from FYROM or some other country and you have some sort of ultra nationalist bone to pick. The words “Human rights” are often used as sneaky way by ultra nationalists to push pure natioanlist agendas. (see MHRMI)

            But lets suppose this is not the case.. what exactly makes you “British”? How about we all muddy the waters and suggest you are no more British than someone French? How about we take it further and stay silent as French rename part of their country “England” and renamed themselves “english”. How about we give you ridiculous patronizing lectures that England is oppressing the “ethnic English minority in England” while the “ethnic English” are producing endless maps of “United England’?

            You sir are too full of prejudices towards Greeks to listen. Your cup is too full. You cannot even face the fact that Greeks understood this issue far far better than FYROM’s apologists 20 years ago. Instead you break out into endless patronizing cliches because you think lowly Greeks like me have never considered your “deep” anti-nationalism wisdom.

            Being against FYROM govenrments expansionism and usurpation of Greek history doesn’t make every Greek a fascist sir. It makes FYROM ultra nationalists fascists. You confused the victim with the perp.

  • August 16, 2012 at 5:27 pm
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    The Greeks living in the Greek province of Macedonia are Macedonians.There are some Macedonians livingg in FYROM..Will Skopje regonize the minority rights of Macedonians in FYROM?

    • August 16, 2012 at 6:26 pm
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      @Akron – FYROM ultra nationalist living in Macedonia Greece tried to register an institution called “Home of Macedonian” culture (to of course a manipulative way to insinuate Macedonia Greece belongs to them).

      Much like Yugoslav communist propagandists publicly FYROM nationalist organizations manipulate the words “Minorities” and “Human rights” to fool the ignorant and well meaning (or those with prejudices against Greeks). They claim their interest is only the minority rights of “Macedonians in Macedonia” not irredentism.

      In practice as you well know there actions indicate the exact opposite of their assurances. The long term goal of the former Yugoslavians is to ethnically eradicate Greeks (especially Macedonian ones). Its the only way their fabricated ethnic narrative can exist. Their government (and even fake “human rights” nationalist fronts like MHRMI/AMHRC) encourage their citizens to see themselves as descendents of ancient Macedonians and Greece as occupied territory (which FYROM apologists now dishonestly pretend not to notice or downplay to cover up their shame for supporting them)

      The tact that the Greek haters have now taken is they pretentiously self-proclaim themselves as absolute moral authorities on “human rights” (whereas Greeks are portrayed as dumb “oppressors” that have no concern for human rights or ethics) They’ll try to project any extremists in Greece as representing the norm (sort of like claiming the KKK and far right extremists in the US represent average US citizens)

      Frankly, given FYROM apologists now dishonourably downplay notice FYROM’s sudden identity change and rampent irredentism, I think they are going to try and ethnically erase the Greek people with words to cover up their shame. Greeks needs a coherent strategy to hit back at these patronzing bigots.

      One option I have debated with some members of the Macedonian community is Greece recognizing a sovereign Macedonian state named a straight Macedonia and citizens straight Macedonian (but of the Hellenic variety rather than FYROM’s Slavic). Greece could also politically reform itself into another Hellenic League (much like the one founded by ancient Macedonians themselves or GB today)

      The purpose of such a state it would force both FYROM and its Greek-hating apologists to recognize Macedonians in both Macedonia and FYROM. What are they going to say as an opposing argument to not recognize the self-determination of Macedonians? It would give these evasive Greek-hating bigots a taste of their own self-righteous medicine.

      What do you think of this idea?

      • August 16, 2012 at 7:18 pm
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        @akron – Just a little bit i would like to add to this idea.

        If FYROM natioanlists refused to recognized the Macedonian minority in FYROM… or recognized them with any sort of qualifier beyond Macedonian (which FYROM themselves refuse right?)… then Greece would equally apply FYROM’s own rules to any FYROM nationalists living in Greece (qualifying them as Bulgarian Macedonians or Slav Macedonians if they refused to admit their Bulgarian heritage).

        The idea here is to use their own manipulative one-liner absolutist self-identificaton arguments against them. Macedonians could equally register Hellenic cultural centers in FYROM named “Home of Macedonian Culture”.

  • August 16, 2012 at 7:42 pm
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    @Anonymous. I understand where you are going with this, and have put forward a completely legitimate and valid proposal. I think the Greek government,however, has adopted a very different startegy based on some political realities on the ground.

    Gruevski and his government are not interested in joining the EU or NATO. Doing so would mean they would have to adopt a series of democratic reforms that would seep power away from their nationalist party. They instead spend their time playing victim and speading hate filled propaganda to shore up their base and make their people feel that their enemies (i.e. Greeks, Bulgarians,Albanians,Serbs) will attack if they don’t fall in line with the government point of view. Unfortunately for them, time and demographic shifts will render their efforts useless.
    It is projected that in the next 10 years the Albanian population will turn into the majority. Greece believes that this fact will nullify the name issue, ans it is most likely that FYROM will be partitioned. Bulgaria also sees the demogrphia shift as anopportunity to expand and rejoin with Bulgarain populated FYROM.
    The Greek government has elected to wait this out given the above realities. They willbe more than happy to work with a friendly Bulgaria and Albania. FYROM will eventually be relegated to the dustbins of history. A footnote of some weird communist experiment that went horribly wrong.

    • August 16, 2012 at 8:20 pm
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      @akron – I fully agree with you that Greeks should support Albanian minority in FYROM (as well as FYROM nationalists that aren’t oppressing evidence of their Serbian and Bulgarian heritage)

      Samaras remains to be seen (who was principled in the Macedonia issue to the point it got him kicked out ND) but I think prior Greek governments have been in complete denial on this issue.

      Frankly, NATO is currently utterly untrustworthy and unprincipled. The US and British governments in particular because they now dishonestly pretend not to remember they strongly backed Greece on this name issue. Bush cronies (who recognized FYROM after they sent troops to Iraq “coincidentally”) and xenophobe Cameron (that no one will ever confuse for Poet Lord Byron) constantly lobby against Greeks.

      Some people don’t know and mean know harm. I have no malice against such people because they have their own issues to deal with. However actual long time apologists for FYROM have no such moral justification. Given they now dishonestly pretend not to notice FYROM’s identity change and irredentism we have to assume the Greek hating bigots are now more concerned with hiding their shame for recognizing FYROM than the human rights of Greeks.

      They are literally going to try to ethnically erase us to cover up their shame Akron.

      Since Greece does not have either economic, military or political capital to protect itself. we have have to work with what we have. IMO the best defense we have is using the arguments of FYROM’s Greek hating racist apologists against themselves. since the former ethnic Bulgarians of VMRO seem to want to continue Balkan war IMRO name games we should work to get FYROM government to recognize a Macedonian minority in FYROM.

  • August 16, 2012 at 8:54 pm
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    And we need people like yourself to articulate and hold the hypocrits to account.

    • August 16, 2012 at 10:54 pm
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      Thanks for the vote of support Akron. I wish more Greeks sounded like you.

      As far as I can tell Greece problem at the moment is too many extremists. On the far right we have Golden Dawn who end up behaving like the evil IMRO fascists facing Greece.

      On the far left we have pseudo-intellectual post modernists flakes who try so desperately to show how we are all “comrades”… they end up collaborating with extremist foreign bigots effectively working to ethnically eradicate the Greek people.

      Rational people understand for a nation to survive the people both need to protect their home and need to show humanity towards others when appropriate. It’s not just one or the other.

    • August 16, 2012 at 11:02 pm
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      IMO another goal Greeks should is a public apology by any of FYROM”s supporters and public condemnation of their behaviror. Also give the Greek-hating bigots the pretend not to notice FYROM’s sudden change into “ancient Macedonians” and “United Macedonia” irredentist rhetoric a taste of their own medicine and publicly call them out as racists and human rights oppressors (which would be accurate since these bigots actively collude with FYROM fascists trying to ethnically eradicate Greeks)

  • August 16, 2012 at 11:13 pm
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    I couldn’t agree more with you Anonymous. I have had the same thoughts regarding the various groups in Greece. And we definitely need to stop mincing words and call out FYROMs racists and their psuedo intellectual supporters.

    • August 17, 2012 at 7:24 pm
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      @akron

      The former Yugoslavian propagandists learned well under communism how to manipulate people’s emotions. FYROM ultra natioanlists have been successfully manipulating the words “human rights” and “minorities” to portray themselves as “victims” to 3rd parties- while simultaneously amongst themselves behaving like fascists by encouraging citizens to see Greece as occupied territory and aim to ethnically erase Greeks.

      Back in the early 90’s FYROM were mocking Greeks for suggesting FYROM would attempt to usurp Greek history and use it to encourage irredentism. FYROM diplomats and fake “human rights” groups constantly assured everyone they weren’t claiming to be related to ancient Macedonians (as a ploy to get recognized). All their smug apologists ignored the cold war history of this issue and participated in that Greek-bashing.

      Once they received widespread recognition though… FYROM’s government and organization switched context of their “modern Macedonian identity” into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” right before the eyes of their apologists.

      Their apologists are now so used to mocking and ethnically harassing Greeks on this issue (which we turned to be right about)… they now dishonestly pretend they don’t notice FYROM sudden identity change and irredentism (or downplay it). The primary reason for this to recognize that FYROM ultra nationalists played them… is to recognize the evil they themselves were engaged in (including a few that claim to support human rights).

      Thus rather than apologize they all hide from their shame by manipulatively attempting to lump in other issues with FYROM issue. (e.g Greeks doesn’t officially recognize minorities )but this is no different than France) They’ll hypocritically attempt to deny our identity as Greeks while lecturing us about FYROM. They’ll hide behind a tiny minority of extreme anti-nationalist Greeks that support them (presumably to “prove” to us how they don’t hate Greeks), etc..)

      Someone truly concerned with human rights would not manipulate human rights or hide behind collective opinion in this manner to hide their shame. They would not sacrifice their personal principles and whitewash this issue for the sake of their egos. They would not only admit their mistake but also denounce the FYROM government and any propagandists for their manipulations. Someone that really cared would even stop referencing FYROM as “Macedonian”.

      Some don’t know the issues and don’t mean harm. Those people I have no malice towards. However for those that do know, and continue to pretend not to notice, as Jewish persecution shows, just because their are many of them, or they put “human rights’ in their sentences or don’t hate someone else, doesn’t morally absolve them of persecuting Greeks.

      Mark my words Akron. These patronizing bigots are going to try to ethnically erase the Greek people to cover up their shame.

  • August 29, 2012 at 12:18 am
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    Correct me if I am wrong I don’t think I have made any ‘facinating historical claims’, quite the opposite I am yet to be convinced. I have never once claimed Ancient Macedonians were Slavic. I am just fascinated that anyone within modern Europe is so convinced that they have a pure undiluted link to a long dead ancient civilisation. The debate over whether Alexander The Great was Macedonian, Ancient Macedonian, Greek, Ancient Greek, Hellenic, Martian or whatever is just that, a debate. Did he conquer and rule, was he assimilated after his death? Did he exalt his Greekness (whatever that meant 2300 years ago) above all else? I couldn’t say it is for historians to discuss history. I couldn’t care less what people want to call themselves, I might disagree with their sentiment, but I would defend to the hilt their right to self determine. You might call me an ‘apologist for evil’ or ‘Greek-hating manipulative bigot’ both polite, calm and measured ways of discussing said issue, it doesn’t bother me. Again I am asking for evidence, convince me why The Republic Of Macedonia can not be called by its constitutional name. Show me why an ancient long dead civilisation should be monopolised by anyone to deny any individual their right of self determination.

    • August 29, 2012 at 2:38 am
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      @frosty – Do you find it morally appropriate for the government of FYROM to manipulate the name Macedonia to encourage large numbers of its citizens to see 1/3 of Greece as “Greek occupied Macedonia” bigot?

  • August 29, 2012 at 4:19 pm
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    Sorry the cat jumped onto my keyboard and pressed ‘submit’ before I could finish my post! The reference for that quote its from http://www.cecl.gr via the The RIGAS Network Project as funded by the Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Whilst the piece was written by Dr. Cvetan Cvetkovski, Ass. Professor, Faculty of Law, Skopje, Republic of Macedonia, you might enjoy it as it doesn’t mention Alexander the Great or Ancient Macedonia.
    Just an aside any chance people posting on this forum could star adopting an ID other than ‘Anonymous’? Its getting quite difficult to address individual comments and views, let alone knowing whether I am conversing with one or many individuals.

    Cheers, Respect.

    • August 29, 2012 at 5:38 pm
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      @frosty – You seem to bizarrely believe that national recognition is an absolute under international law. Its not. There is no “human right” to coerce people in one nation to recognize another.

      However if you feel there should be instead of Greek-hating bigots like you spending all your time ethnically harassing Greek I think you should a little moral consistence and get to work denoucing the FYROM government or denying the self-determination of the people of the republic of China (taiwan)

      “The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan’s accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood”
      http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6315770.html

      • August 29, 2012 at 6:48 pm
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        I refer you to my previous post:

        ‘The situation in Taiwan is fascinating. Again I state I am someone who believes that Human rights are paramount. So yes I would criticize The Macedonian government for their inability to recocgnise the Taiwanese people’s right to self determination. But to put it into context I would also criticize the other Countries that do the same Greece and The United Kingdom included.’

        • August 29, 2012 at 7:53 pm
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          And I repeat what I said… You make the claim you would criticize… but in practice you spend hours and hours focusing on Greeks instead? Hardly rationally consistent bigot.

        • August 29, 2012 at 11:43 pm
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          This is a forum about the ‘Macedonian’ issue, post a link to the Taiwan issue, and I’ll post there as well. Cheers.

        • August 30, 2012 at 5:24 am
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          I can repeat also. This not a forum on name dispute.

          While you claim you would equally spend time denouncing the former Yugoslavians for hypocritically denying the self-determination of Republic of China (among others), in practice you have not demonstrated that here.

          Instead you rant and rant about Greeks (trying to dig up anything negative you can find about Greece) while simultaneously claiming you don’t have prejudices against Greeks.

          Are you that suprised after listening to you for hours rant about Greeks that I believe you are a manipulative bigot with severe prejudices against Greeks? Who, that is mentally sane, would spend this much of their free time ranting about Greeks? Don’t you have anything else to do with your time? Aren’t there more pressing world issue than the name dispute bigot?

    • August 29, 2012 at 5:48 pm
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      Colluding with ultra nationalist propagandists from the former Yugoslav republic trying to ethnically erase my family shows you have no respect bigot.

      • August 29, 2012 at 6:47 pm
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        You’d better take that up with the Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs who fund the website which contains that article, as they seem to be complicit in ethnically erasing your family.

        • August 29, 2012 at 7:52 pm
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          Nonsense.

        • August 29, 2012 at 11:52 pm
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          http://www.cecl.gr/RigasNetwork/ – look at the bottom center of the page. In the project detail page it states ‘The Programme is financed by the Hellenic Ministry of National Economy within the framework of the Hellenic Development Cooperation Programme’. That is my source for what its worth.

        • August 30, 2012 at 4:56 am
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          You misunderstood why I said nonsense. You point about the Ministry is a red herring.

      • August 30, 2012 at 9:51 am
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        Please expand on why who has sponsored this source is a ‘Red Herring’. I am simply giving in detail what my source was for this quote, its up to anyone reading my post and reference to make up their own mind as to the validity of the piece and the website it comes from. You obviously discount it as having any value, but others might not.

  • August 29, 2012 at 6:02 pm
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    @frosty

    You keep trying to paint all Greeks as oppressive for not agreeing you with your political stance on FYROM (demagoguery) I believe in human rights too bigot. However unlike self-righteous Greek-hating bigots like you I realize adding the words “human rights” to my sentences doesn’t put my sundry ethical assertions above question or put me potentially above having cognitive biases.

    Dear bigot… “Human rights” is not whatever some government thinks it should be. Nor what some dude that works in an organization that puts “human rights’ in its sentences thinks it should be. Nor what even the UN thinks is currently fashionable. Not whatever words exit your mouth.

    Human rights has nothing to so with collective mob opinions on the matter. If one believes in objective ethics its about objective natural rights. These are not always easy to define and those that attempt to pretentiously claim they are some absolute moral authorities on human rights are are best suited to preaching to religious fanatics.

  • August 29, 2012 at 6:12 pm
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    @Frosty – The fyrom government has made lots of assurances about respecting Greece in the past.

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    Unfortunately Greek-hating bigots like you see only what you want to see and selectively choose to forget or downplay the rest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpFQUH_9VPA

    • August 29, 2012 at 6:49 pm
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      I don’t hate Greeks, you state ‘ you see only what you want to see and selectively choose to forget or downplay the rest’ specifics please, what have I omitted?

      • August 29, 2012 at 7:56 pm
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        Of course you hate Greeks. You constantly attempt to portray Greek people as oppressors. You deny our identity as greek. ou stay blind to their sudden identity change into “ancient macedonians” and irrredentist rheotric

        You effectively collude with former Yugoslavians trying to ethnically erase my family.. while having the audactity to claim you speak for “human rights” and against racism?

        Sorry bigot. Not buying it.

        • August 30, 2012 at 12:03 am
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          I am not asking you to buy anything, I am simply stating my point of view. You don’t have to agree with it. Where have I denied you your right to identify yourself as Greek? I don’t care what you call yourself, you could be Atlantean for all I care. But your right to your own identity doesn’t supersede anyone elses rights to determine who they are. In regards to ‘irrredentist rheotric’ give me examples, convince this Brit with to much time on his hands. I don’t wish to portray the Greek people as oppressors, I look to the machinations of state for the dubious party in this issue. The Greek powers that be not the people are the ones who were found at fault in the ICJ’s December 2011 judgement.

        • August 30, 2012 at 2:35 am
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          I don’t give a damn about the ICJ verdict that you evasively hide behind.

          FYROM apologists lost all moral credibility when they started to dishonestly pretend not to notice the former Bulgarians sudden change into “ancient Macedonians” and rampant irredentism.

          Colluding with extremists trying to ethnically erase the Greek people and insinuate 1/3 of my homeland is “Greek occupied Macedonia” is not “human rights” bigot.

          Whether bigots like you like or not that Greek, Jews, Chinese and other people identify with ancient countparts that is your mental issue to deal with. The people of the world with sundry ancient identities will not commit ethnic suicide because of your own personal insecurities bigot.

  • August 29, 2012 at 6:56 pm
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    I talk of human rights from my own point of view, I don’t represent any nation or organistation, I just state my own view on what I see as a human rights abuse. So when you imply that I think that I am an ‘absolute moral authorities on human rights’ I respectively decline. Its just me here in London my laptop and cat putting it how I see it, you can .disagree, call me a bigot (again fantastically democratic language) I won’t complain, but its still my point of view. I don’t ‘paint all Greeks as oppressive for not agreeing you with your political stance’ I couldn’t do this as I have Greek friends who both agree and disagree with me.

    Still a lot of anonymity out there. Respect.

    • August 29, 2012 at 7:24 pm
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      And I state my view on human rights abuse too. You are abusing my family;s human righst bigot.

      I would also point out again “frosty” is not a first and last name . Indeed there is still a lot of anonymity out there.

      Given how much time you’ve spent demonzing Greeks I don;t believe your claim your are ethnically British but even on the odd chance you are, I still think you are a bigot with severe prejudices against Greeks.

      Respect.

      • August 29, 2012 at 11:41 pm
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        In what way am I ‘abusing my family;s human righst bigot.’. Maybe something has been lost in translation, without wanting to sound patronizing, if I’m not wrong English is not your first language. Please state where I have denied you or your family your beliefs or identity. I might disagree with your interpretation of modern European law, politics, and freedom of expression, but I would never deem to refuse you your paradigm, it is your point of view, I know that I will not change it. I know that frosty is not my name however as I stated before for the benefits of educated and serious discourse it would be great to know who was posting when and at what frequency. I must look like a right nutter addressing all the anti-Macedonian Rhetorique that is posting on this forum, but at least you know its me. You may have posted before but I don’t know where and when, give us an ID and at least we can all follow your train of thought. I don’t know how to convince you that I am British, does it really matter? Does my lack of investment in this whole issue threaten anyone? No. I repeat I don’t hate Greeks, I don’t hate Greeks, I don’t hate Greeks. My ‘severe prejudices against Greeks’ as you put it are only based upon state policy towards Greece’s Northern neighbours. Its in the same way I as a individual would criticise the Pakistan state for its anti blasphemy laws, I don’t believe every Pakistani endorses such a policy but I would deem their government wrong to implement it.

        • August 30, 2012 at 1:52 am
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          Sorry bigot. Not buying it any longer. You are the one posting all the anti-Macedonian rhetoric. Macedonia is physically located in Greece not ancient paeonia bigot. The former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians living in their are not an iota more “ethnic Macedonian” than they are “ethnic English”

          You are abusing the human rights of Greeks by colluding with FYROM ultra nationalists trying to ethnically erase the Greek people (especially Macedonian ones) and staying blind as they constantly insinuate my homeland is occupied territory. Stop supporting fascism bigot.

  • August 29, 2012 at 7:25 pm
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    When Greek-hating bigots started to dishonestly pretend not to notice FYROM’s change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and rampant irredentism (to hide their shame) they lost every last shred of moral credibility.

    The accord between FYROM and Greece also included these clauses right frosty?

    Article 3: “Each Party undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the political independence of the other Party. Neither Party shall support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or the political independence of the other Party. ”

    Article 7

    7.1 Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

    2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

    3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpFQUH_9VPA

    • August 29, 2012 at 7:28 pm
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      Alexander the Greatt was born in Pella Greece no? He was a self-identifying Hellene no? So why are the current Slavic inhabitents…. located in the ancient Kingdom of Paeonia… building giant Alexander statues and claiming themselves descendents of ancient Macedonians dear bigot?

      So what do you think this clause in the agreement was a reference to bigot? Ancient Mayan history?

      3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

      • August 30, 2012 at 1:16 am
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        I refer you to my previous post: ‘In regards to this issue no one has provided me with enough evidence either way to convince me ultimately of the nature of the Ancient Macedonian identity.’ Not that I find the identity of a long dead civilisation relevant. Its not for me to say whether statues in a city square go against the interim accord. They might offend, they might be financial folly but do they go against international law? If were in the Greek government I would have used them as evidence in the ICJ case Dec. 2011. In fact they did, in regards to the naming of Macedonia’s airport the court responded ‘The Court concludes that the Respondent has not discharged its burden to demonstrate a breach of Article7, paragraph 3, by the Applicant.’ Whilst you might be offended, for that I am sorry, as a British neutral I will side with the International Courts Of Justice. That will undoubtedly anger you, for that I apologise.

        • August 30, 2012 at 1:47 am
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          Your evasivenss by pointing to the bizarre ICJ verdict is not moral out to my points. In the end the ICJ is not a government. Its a organization that attemptst to peacefully resolve issues between states. Countries can and do ignore ICJ verdicts if they feel they outweigh national security issues. (including security council members I would add)

          I don’t think you are “neutral” as you claim. I don’t know if you are British as you claim or a false flag account claiming to be British but whatever the case I think you are an evasive Greek hating bigot.

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:11 am
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            I don’t think its evasive referring to the ICJ verdict. In regards to this issue I try and look towards neutral sources. News sites can be and are bias to one extent or another, Youtube where most of the previous posts have taken evidence from is in my view incredibly dubious. The ICJ ruling December 2011 is possibly the one aspect of this whole issue that shines a light on the actions and motivations of both parties involved in this ongoing issue. Again I say I am British, not sure how I can convince you. You say ‘I think you are an evasive Greek hating bigot’ fine thats your opinion, but believe me when I say I don’t hate Greeks or Greece. It would be nice if I could refer to you as something more personal rather than my friend ‘anonymous’, when you state ‘I think’ who is ‘I’ its really easy, just pop an ID in then we can all follow your arguments. Respect.

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:16 am
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            Indeed it is evasive. The ICJ are not historians and their evasiveness over FYROM’s sudden change into “ancient Macedonians” and rampent irrdentism is not a moral out for you either bigot.

        • August 30, 2012 at 2:03 am
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          its not just the airport you evasive bigot. Its streets ,stadiums, schoolbooks, and giant statues to ancient Greek historical figures in downtown FYROM.

          Lets not play pretend what the modern former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarian inhabitents of ancient Paeonia are trying to insinuate by that ok bigot?

          http://www.google.com/search?q=united%20macedonia

          And lets not selectively pretend we don’t remember what their own elected politicians used to claim about their so-called “Macedonian” identity ok bigot?

          “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” (Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik)

          And lets not forget what the US (and british) government used to claim about their so-called “Macedonian” identity ok bigot?

          “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:38 am
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            None of what you state negates the need for the human right of self determination. The US government (who have recognised the Republic Of Macedonia under its constitutional name), The British Government (who have recognised the Republic Of Macedonia under its constitutional name), individual politicians can never deny what identity an individual feels whether it be race, sexuality, religion, or cultural, thats my belief I think an individuals human rights are paramount.

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:43 am
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            And none of what you says changes the fact the US, British, Chinese, and governments around the world have no issue not recognizing nations when it suits them.

            Bigots like you though disingenious try to claim name recognition as a “human right”. Its not bigot. Grow up bigot. In the real world when country tries to manipulate place names to try to ethnically erase someone else it leads to conflict bigot.

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:48 am
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            Nice try at spinning unprincipled behavior of US and British governments as “goodness’ there bigot. The fact remains both nations claimed no such ethnic groups as “Macedonians” exists bigot.

            The fact is only afte FYROM sent troops to Bush’s little war in Iraq in 2003 (for non-existence WMDs I would add)… did they “coincidentally” get recognized.

            And now that they suddenly have become descendents of ancient Macedonians and constantly manipulate the name to insinaute /13 of Greece is occupied territory… FYROM’s apologists dishonestly pretend not notice?

            Have you no shame bigot?

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:53 am
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            Do you grasp that every word that exist your mouth does not constitute a human right bigot? That human rights is a complex issue that is yet not agreed upon universally in many areas?

            Please stop pretentiously and manipulatively putting the words “human rights” into your sentences. It just further illustrates how disingenuous you argue. Argue substance rather than trying to dishonestly portray yourself as some sort of absolute moral authority on human rights bigot.

        • August 30, 2012 at 2:14 am
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          Hey bigot. Who is more qualified in history. News reporters, judges, political pundits janitors, pizza delivery guys…or qualified historians?

          So what do well respected and accredited ancient Greek historians like Oxford historian Robin Fox Lane mean when they say…

          Those who live in Skopje and say that that is Macedon and Alexander’s homeland are as IGNORANT and OUTRAGEOUS as if someone was to say that Oxford University was really in Belarus and Oxford was Minsk”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4usu3ovzBM

          • August 30, 2012 at 2:59 am
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            I’m not talking about who claims history, thats not for me to decide. Its for academics to debate for the rest of time. I look to the ICJ December 2011 judgement as an demonstration of modern European politics and legal rights. History is for the historians

          • August 30, 2012 at 3:04 am
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            I mean you selectively choose who to listen to bigot

            FYROM’s sudden change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” and rampant irredentism isn’t even ancient history bigot. Its happened right before your eyes bigot.

            “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB8UjOHG_8

          • August 30, 2012 at 3:17 am
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            Indeed history is for the historians… and not a single historian on earth claims ancient Macedonians were Slavic…. yet bigots like you try to muddle ethnic lines to insinuate Greeks must “share” an ethnic identity that belongs to Greeks?

            How do you think Jews in Israel would react is someone tried to insinuate that Palestinians are the “real” Jews bigot?

    • August 30, 2012 at 2:08 am
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      I would rather suffer economically for a period than commit ethnic suppuku like Greek hating bigots like you prefer. A bribe to recognize FYROM are as low as it comes bigot.

      • August 30, 2012 at 2:21 am
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        Who has mentioned a bribe to recognise Macedonia? Please stop being so hysterical and read my post calmly, any bail out Greece receives should be without conditions. The current austerity measures that the Greeks are suffering are awful, they only serve to punish those who were ultimatley not responsible for the financial meltdown that the country is in. I repeat I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks,I don’t hate greeks.

      • August 30, 2012 at 2:29 am
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        I don’t care what you claim bigot. I judge by actions not narratives of your own goodness. Everyone and their mother claims to be a saint but evil still exists.

        If someone colludes with ultra nationalist racist fanatics trying to ethnically erase the Greek people and trying to blatantly obviously insinuate large section of my ho9meland belong annexed to FYROM… their actions speak for themselves.

        Supporting fascists trying to commit genocide against the Greek people is not “human rights’ bigot.

      • August 30, 2012 at 2:39 am
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        Hey bigot, I though you claimed you would equally arguing about the former Yugoslavians not recognizing the self-determination of the people of the Republic of China? Why are you still spending hours harassing me here bigot? Shouldn’t you be spending hours denoucing the former Yugoslavians for denying the self-determination of Taiwan.

        “The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan’s accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood.”

        “http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6315770.html
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm

        Sure you don’t hate Greeks bigot. Whatever you say bigot.

      • August 30, 2012 at 3:16 am
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        As posted earlier:

        ‘This is a forum about the ‘Macedonian’ issue, post a link to the Taiwan issue, and I’ll post there as well. Cheers.’

      • August 30, 2012 at 4:44 am
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        As I posted earlier.

        This is not a forum on the name dispute. You could have just as easily spent hours of your time denouncing the hypocritical manipulators in the former Yugoslavian government for not recognizing the self-determination of the Republic of China.

    • August 30, 2012 at 2:15 am
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      I am genuinly confused where on earth have I used ‘eugenics-like racial impurity arguments’ in any of my posts? I think you have misread something. Please reply with specific quotes, its really important that if you are going to cast such views on my character and argument that you back it up with firm evidence.

    • August 30, 2012 at 2:49 am
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      “the arguments that come from the nationalistic Hellenic paradigm, the way in which they imply a pure unadulterated biological link to ancient races and the use of this to monopolise an ethnic identity,”

      lets look at what I actually meant. ‘nationalistic Hellenic paradigm’ ie the right wing in Greece that would deny a nation and its populous the human right of self determination. ‘Ancient races’ is not such a bizarre concept, The Macedons of over 2000 years ago, like the ancient Britons have very little to do with their modern counterparts. Therefore I think it irrelevant to use or ‘monopolise’ such a supposed link or name to deny a modern European democracy its place in a free world. I agree ‘Every ethnic group is demands to be respected bigot.’ (theres that nice polite respectful word again) in regards to the Macedonian situation that respect is lacking on both sides, but there is only one state sponsored refusal of another country joining the international organisations that it should be entitled to.

    • August 30, 2012 at 3:00 am
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      “Ancient races’ is not such a bizarre concept”

      You are a pseudo-scientific crackpot if you associate ethnic identities with race bigot. Virutally any geneticist in the world will tell you race doesn’t exist on an ethnic level. Genes don’t know about ethnic identities bigot. Anonymous DNA testing shows this over and over but illiterate pretentious morons like you live in fantasies.

    • August 30, 2012 at 3:02 am
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      Sure sure buddy. Other than some location, language, a massive amount of culture… Greeks have absolutely nothing in common with ancient Macedonians. Seriously do you read the drivel you write?

    • August 30, 2012 at 3:13 am
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      I’d appreciate it if stopped resorted to straw man negative stereotypes about what the Greek people think about their identity bigot. Like every ethnic group in the world Greek people can have a different feel for Greek identity. Only a minority of extremists believe the racial purity argument you keep trying to attribute to us bigot. (which exist in every nation I would add)

      Greeks considering ancient Greeks our cultural patromy and primary source of our culture is not an iota different than what Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Egyptions and other nations do. On a very practical measurable level we have far far more in common with ancient counterparts than virtually any of our critiques have in common with their claimed roots.

      Curiously bigots like you obsess over Greek identity? Why don’t you spend your time constantly ethnically harassing 1.3 billion Chinese people that consider ancient Chinese part of their identity and cultural patrimony bigot?

  • August 29, 2012 at 9:17 pm
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    How wonderful Yet more FYROM natioanlists waving Star of Vergina (supposedly not to be used by FYROM as part of the agreement)… and a giant map of 1/3 of Greece annexed to FYROM.

    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/janevski-takes-macedonia-coach-183148184.html

    FYROM’s Greek-hating apologists constantly make the bizarre claim they can find no evidence of rampant irredentism. (pparently FYROM’s government’s sudden identity change into “descendents of ancient Macedonians” is just something to do)

    Here I thought collaborating with racist ultra nationalists trying to ethnically erase the Greek people and calling for expansion into my country was closer to “fascism” rather than “human rights”.

    I must be mistaken though. Obviously every ethnic nation in the world approves of neighbouring states threatening them in this manner.

  • August 30, 2012 at 9:44 am
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    In response to ‘Virutally any geneticist in the world will tell you race doesn’t exist on an ethnic level. Genes don’t know about ethnic identities bigot. Anonymous DNA testing shows this over and over’. I totally agree, I merely point out that in my view there are those on both sides of the argument that would use biology to claim a term, a name, an identity, whilst ignoring the complexities of the South Eastern European demographic and populous. Where have I said ‘Greeks have absolutely nothing in common with ancient Macedonians.’? I have said ‘ The Macedons of over 2000 years ago, like the ancient Britons have very little to do with their modern counterparts’, I include Macedonians and Greeks in the definition ‘their modern counterparts’. The fact that an ancient kingdom fell in both Northern Greece and The Republic Of Macedonia, or that the ancient Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect like a lot of the ancient world, and that ruined cities such as Heraclea Lycestis or Pella exist show the folly of using these factors as a pretext to deny anyone there identity. They are in many ways irrelevant. This forum is in response to an article entitled ‘Bulgarian Anti-Macedonian Bigotry From An EU MP’. My discussion has been in regards to this issue over Macedonian identity and those who would deny a modern state the right of self determination. In this context one could talk of many peoples from different backgrounds who adopt what in my view is an anti human rights stance to this question. This forum by post five had turned to The Greek governments stance on the issue, from there on in I was reacting and responding to peoples points (how many people we will never know due to the anonymity of the posts). So as I stated earlier ‘This is a forum about the ‘Macedonian’ issue (whether it is from a Bulgarian, Greek, British, Martian point of view), post a link to the Taiwan issue, and I’ll post there as well. What would be wonderful is that if we are going to continue this thread you might consider using an ID other than anonymous. I’m sure you’d want people to see your train of thought, and allow yourself in some small way to be held accountable for the things you have said in the past and the language that you have used. Respect.

    • August 30, 2012 at 4:20 pm
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      Uhmmm…you just tried to argue ancient Greeks were some sort of race (as well as subsequently argue the existence of ethic races) and that based on racial impurity that I am not a “real” greek (aka fascist ideology) When I call out your gibberish you backtracking and pretend you didn’t? A liar and a bigot.

      And no bigot. the fact is the original ancient kingdom of Macedonia did not fall in ancient Paeonia where FYROM is situated (and Dardinia to the north). This is an urban myth perpetuated by both FYROM and its Greek hating apologists. You are confusing modern with ancient nomenclature.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_%28kingdom%29

      And lets get this straight once and for all. Despite all the claims by FYROM (and its apologists) of a distinct Macedonian language, in practice there is not a single ancient Macedonians written in anything but Greek. Unlike FYROM’s Bulgarian dialect modified and renamed “Macedonian” by Yugoslav communists, our modern langauge is greek in more than just name bigot. Do you grasp we can still comprehend most of the words of ancient Macedonian artifacts bigot? I’m still waiting for you to provide a accredited non-FYROM historian to back up your claims that the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM has anything to do with ancient Macedonians.

      I’m also still waiting for you to spend hours of your time denouncing the former Yugoslavians for denying the self-determination of Republic of China. While you are at it, why not denouce 1.3 billion Chinese people for considering the ancient Chinese their cultural patromony and not wanting to “share” it with Russia or Japan.

      You have no concern with facts or moral and intellectual consistency. You are about pure narrative. You just want to undermine Greeks because you are a pretentious Greek hating bigot.

    • August 30, 2012 at 4:26 pm
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      Why not try first consulting an actual accredited historian about history before making your sundry fabricated historical claims bigot?

      On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.
      http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)

      Stop persecuting Greeks and show some respect bigot.

    • August 30, 2012 at 4:31 pm
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      Everyone has a right to an identity. Common sense would dictate they don[‘t have the right to someone else’s identity. That is known as “identity theft”. On a personal level its a crime. On a national level it amounts to genocide. FYROM’s apologists are evil.

    • August 30, 2012 at 4:32 pm
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      You write “My discussion has been in regards to this issue over Macedonian identity and those who would deny a modern state the right of self determination.”

      Then show some moral and intellectual consistency and get to work spending hours of your time criticizing the former Yugoslavians for not recognizing the self-determination of the people’s Republic of China you Greek-obsessed bigot.

      “The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan’s accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood” – FYROM government on self-determination of people of Republic of China

    • August 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm
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      I dispute your bizarrely claim that Greeks have little in common with ancient Macedonians bigot. We have a massive amount in common with ancient Greeks bigot. (geography, language, culture and dare I say it even some DNA).

      I’m sorry if it offends you that Greeks have a Greek identity that you reference as as “long dead civilization”. We don’t see Greeks as a “long dead civilization” much like we don’t see the British people as a “long dead civilization”. Much like we don’t see Chinese people as a “long dead civilization”. Much like we don’t see Germans as a “long dead civilization”. Etc. etc..

      If you have a problem with people around the world having an ethnic identity that relates to what you frame as “long dead civilizations”… I suggest you start harassing other ethnic groups like you do Greeks to at least show a shred of moral and intellectual consistency.

      Good luck on your efforts to convince billions of people that they are actually part of “long dead civilizations” you intolerant bigot.

      • August 30, 2012 at 5:15 pm
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        @frosty

        I believe its important to provide evidence if one accuses someone else of bigotry. So to give evidence to my claim that you are a Greek-obsessed bigot.

        A. You keep demonizing Greeks with the fascinating claim state recognition is a “human right”. However in practice this is UNTRUE. State recognition is not a “human right” as you claim. Its a matter of whether other states wish to VOLUNTARILY recognize another states you lying manipulator.

        B.
        Here is a list of states that have recognition limited in some fashion bigot.

        Republic of Somaliland
        Nagorno-Karabakh Republic
        Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic
        Republic of Abkhazia
        Republic of China
        Republic of Kosovo
        Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
        State of Palestine
        Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
        Republic of South Ossetia
        Republic of Armenia
        People’s Republic of China
        Republic of Cyprus
        State of Israel
        State of Palestine
        Democratic People’s Republic of Korea

        Virtually every government in the world doesn’t recognize some state or another on the above list.

        I would also note you have spent HOURS of your time here ranting about Greeks not recognizing FYROM. If you were applying your own claimed ethics in a consistent fashion as you claim… there literally would not be enough hours in the day for you to argue against all these other nations that also don’t recognize some other nation.

        In short… you are a Greek-obsessed BIGOT.

  • August 30, 2012 at 4:30 pm
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    You write “My discussion has been in regards to this issue over Macedonian identity and those who would deny a modern state the right of self determination.”

    Then show some moral and intellectual consistency and get to work spending hours of your time criticizing the former Yugoslavians for not recognizing the self-determination of the people’s Republic of China you Greek-obsessed bigot.

    “The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan’s accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood”

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6315770.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm

  • August 30, 2012 at 5:32 pm
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    @frosty

    I’ll save you some trouble bigot. You repetitious argument in an nutshell.

    Downplay virtually all other nations in the world do not recognize some state or another. Repeatedly lie by trying to frame state recognition as a “human right”.

    Give eugentics-like racial theories on ethnic identity. Claim Greeks are not “real” Greeks based on racial impurities.

    Make quack historical claim that ancient Paeonia is part of original ancient Macedonia.

    Gloss over the former Yugoslavians (mostly descendents of former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians) wholesale usurption of history that literally happened in another state and belongs to another people.

    Stay blind to rampant fascist “united Macedonia” irredentist rhetoric.

    Claim to be against racism. Repeatedly say “human rights”, “minorities”…. then obsessively bash Greeks.

  • August 30, 2012 at 6:45 pm
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    Let’s tone down the comments, and stop calling people bigots – or we will close the thread.

    • August 30, 2012 at 7:03 pm
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      Close the thread if you must. I don’t retract. He is a bigot obsessed with Greeks (see above points)

Comments are closed.