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MHRMI Response To National Post Letter “Canadian Greeks: Don’t Rewrite Balkan History” – OpEd

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By Bill Nicholov

Why the National Post chose to be “objective” and let the Greek community have equal time in responding to the recent op-ed about Macedonia is beyond me. One should not give the oppressor the opportunity to justify its brutal actions against the oppressed.

The vast majority of readers, understandably, have no interest in hearing the long, drawn out version of Greece’s romanticized history. Greece is the only country in the Western world to claim that it has no ethnic minorities and proudly proclaims its “ethnic purity”. Dangerous statements coming from the self-proclaimed “birthplace of democracy”.

In their Letters to the Editor, the Consul General of Greece and various Greek organizations referred to the Republic of Macedonia as “FYROM”. (“In sharp contrast to Greece’s constructive efforts, FYROM Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski…” and “This is what Canadians should consider when they hear the complaints of the FYROM partisans…”). No Macedonian introduces him or herself as being from “FYROM”. These statements show readers what the official Greek position is: deny the very existence of a country and an ethnic group. They’ve taken their directive from the top. Former Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis admitted in 1995 that Greece initiated the nonsensical “name dispute” to continue to deny the existence of its large, indigenous Macedonian minority. Before partisans from the FOCOG go into an uproar, I clearly meant to say “indigenous”. It is a fact that Macedonia was divided in 1913 and Greece annexed 51% of its territory. They like to say “liberated” but one does not slaughter and expel people after a “liberation”.

By the way, FOCOG stands for “Former Ottoman Colony of Greece” but, my mistake, “Greece” did not exist during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans or at any time in history. It was created by the West in the 1830s. Also, after Greece tried to eradicate Macedonia’s existence, it only started to claim that it owned the name Macedonia in 1988. The region of Macedonia that it annexed was officially renamed as such in 1988. Before that, they referred to it as “Northern Greece”.

Of course, Greece continues to deny the existence of Macedonian people – a very difficult task when one, or several million, are standing in front of you.

The fact remains, Macedonia has existed since antiquity and has always been called Macedonia. Case closed. Or should be.

Despite Greece’s intense propaganda campaign, more than 130 countries (including Canada, the United States, Russia, China, and over two thirds of all UN members, including four of five permanent UN Security Council members) have recognized the Republic of Macedonia. Macedonia must stop negotiating its own name and the rest of the world must stop calling for a “solution” to the “name dispute”. These countries should immediately denounce the name negotiations and stop allowing Greece to hold the rest of the world hostage because of its xenophobic policies.

Furthermore, Greece must be penalized for persecuting its ethnic minorities and for blatantly lying about its economic situation and begging, and getting, huge bailout money from the European Union. But since the EU is intent on handing out this money, how about doing so after Greece starts behaving like a democracy?

Bill Nicholov, President
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International

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43 thoughts on “MHRMI Response To National Post Letter “Canadian Greeks: Don’t Rewrite Balkan History” – OpEd

  • January 17, 2012 at 7:03 am
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    This is pure and simple to any neutral person.
    The Fascist Greek government has absolutely no right to demand a country to change its name without the will of the people.
    The shocking factor is that the Europe union has let Greece do as it pleases, instead of acting and upholding Human Rights and preventing Racial Discrimination for the people of the Macedonia.

    Reply
  • January 17, 2012 at 11:12 am
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    In no offence, the writer of this article is an idiot!!!AND.. know’s nothing about history!! The fact remains that ancient macedonians proclaimed themselves that they were greeks, we have historical and archeological evidence from that period,they spread hellenism,( greek way of life),spoke greek, had the same religion, competed in the olympic games, which only greeks were allowed to do,even the holy bible in which if you are a believer, that god simply does not make mistakes, cause alexander the great is always mentioned as been the king of greece and greeks and the greek empire!!! yes greeks lost territory during the ottoman empire as did MANY nations but they drove them out and drove out the slav inhabitants of northern greece who had settled there for a few hundred years and now are confused about there slav origins proclaiming that they are macedonians by ancient lineage, ABSURD, facts: Greeks reclaimed all of greece after 1821 and now the territory of macedonia which they posses is in the geographical are of ANCIENT MACEDONIA and since the people who inhabit the land compromising of ancient macedonia proclaim themselves AS GREEK MACEDONIANS then they are in the right by race, language and land to own the name MACEDONIA.. all this is simple historical and archeological facts and from statements from the ancient macedonians as well. the writer forgets to mention that in the civil war in greece during the so called persecutions.. if anything like that happened it was simply a fact that the northern greeks with some slav inhabitants,( modern day fyromians ), rose up to annex northern greece from the south and to unite northern greece with communist bulgaria and yugoslavia and they lost!! many slavs (fyromians) were exiled and some executed for treason against there country and state!!!! another simple historical fact easily researched!! so now they complain??? fyromians are a mixture of bulgarians and serbs. fact!! there own history shows this and looses the argument for them!!! GREECE=MACEDONIA – NOT ANCIENT PAENONIA WHICH IS WERE MODERN DAY FYROM IS LOCATED AND EVEN THEN THE SLAVS ARRIVED IN THE BALKANS 1000 YEARS AFTER ALEXENDER THE GREAT!! So please research before writing articles!!

    p.s excuse spelling mistakes!

    Reply
    • January 17, 2012 at 9:35 pm
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      Jim,in what planet are you?
      Are you trying to tell the readers that,before 1830s did exist a country”Greece”?Are you dreaming or what?
      You don’t even know your own history.How in hell can you claim that the Macedonians were something that it did not exist!
      Lets take it from 338 bc,there were City States,no nation,no country.Furtheremore,the City States were won by the Macedonian State,the country,do you get it?
      In 1856-58 after the establishment of the Greek country,there was not even a uniform language in order to communicate with each other.Present day language had to be learned in school by every person from ages o to the oldest.Before then,the Albanian was used more than any other language.So,you see,your ancestral language,as well as your identity is more of the Albanian.Ask president Papulias(Sulaiman)of his ancestry.You “Greeks”amaze me the length you would go to claim someonelses history.
      Take 1903 during the Greek PM Rallis interview for the New York Times.On September 3,1903 in the New York arcives the Greek PM using insolent rhetoric to boast about how Greece helped Turkey to suffocate the Ilinden Uprising,”The response is simple,”he said”.Before us we have a pack of wolves which attacked Macedonia,to destroy them not only we will join forces with Turkey but we are prepared to do anything to protect our interests.We are not prepaired to take into consideration those who resist our cooperation with Turkey for commercial reasons,but we will follow the course of our arranged politics”concluded Greek PM Ralis.
      In a similar New York Times article we read”The Greek stand to help Turkey againts the Macedonian revolutionaries”.In another article it said that the Greek government helped the Turkish Sultan through its consuls in Macedonia by asking the Greek people to spy on the Macedonian revolutionaries and report them to the Turkish authorities.Does this sounds like the Greeks wanted to free the Greeks from the Turks,or help their own Turkish ancestors.
      Here is former PM Mitsotakis interview for T.Skinalis book”For the name of Macedonia””From the moment I first saw it I recognized Skopjes theme in its true dimensions.What made me unesy from the beginning was not the name of this country…the oroblem for me was how to avoid creating a second minority problem in Western Macedonia.If the problem of the Slavo-Macedonian minority in Western Macedonia is added to the Muslim minority,which sadly,with our errors is a dangerous development,the situation will become unsustanable for Greek external politics…,emphasized the former Greek Premier.
      The Treaty of Serves which Greece signed on August 10,1920,according the the treaty under articles 7,and 9,the Greek government was to undertake certain obligations regarding”the protection of the non-Greek national minorities in Greece”.These Articles specifically stated free use of languages and education.Initially Greece sought to neglect its obligations,however in March 1925 the League of Nations directed Greece to fulfill its obligations.By May 1925 an elementary school reader was published in the Macedonian language,it was known as the Abecedar.
      Bulgaria and Serbia protested,and threatend of renewing the war over Macedonia.
      What occurred next is truly a rare example,the Greek representative at the League of Nations Vasilis Dendramis responded by defending the Macedonian language as being”Neither Bulgarian,nor Serbian but an independent language”
      He listed various linguists and linguistic maps as evidence to support his claim of the independence of the Macedonian language.The high ranking Greek official representing the Greek state not only recognized the existance of the Macedonian identity,but openly defendsed and supported it.
      To further disclaim your claimes that Macedonians in ancient times,nor present day were Greeks,read what Isocrates wrote to Philip,also the epitaph of Demosthenes for the fallen Hellens reads in 338 bc.
      Greece has written history that does not reflect their own people by fabrication.Even now days,Greece is able to fabricate and get away with it its financial books.I must agree,Greece is the best in fabricating in anything they put their minds,congratulations!

      Reply
  • January 17, 2012 at 4:12 pm
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    Bill Nicholovs comment is 100% right.
    Greece is the only EU member country who does not respect Human Rights of its minority citizens.
    The world should know the facts and not mythology;Fact one,there was no country(nation) in the history of the world that was called Greece up until 1830s.
    The history they have adopted is not Greek.
    Dr.Thomas Arnold,the founder of the school Ethos in the 19th century in England,suggested that “fabricating “Greek”legends will profoundly improve the English image,even more than the”Greek”image”
    A Greek professor of archeology Manolis Andronicos wrote”Macedonia should be considered the cradle of human history”.
    The Macedonian nation was divided illigaly by the Big Powers in 1913 into four parts.The only part that became independent is the Republic of Macedonia.
    Greece,Bulgaria and Albania are occupying rest of Macedonia.If these occupiers value their Human Rights,they should come out and declair equal freedoms for the Macedonian minority,even as far as to unify the country as pre-1913.

    Reply
  • January 17, 2012 at 11:51 pm
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    The author of the article claims:

    “..more than 130 countries (including Canada, the United States, Russia, China, and over two thirds of all UN members, including four of five permanent UN Security Council members) have recognized the Republic of Macedonia.”

    Interesting! Who are these “more than 130 countries” and where is the evidence?

    Can you provide a complete list with the names of all these “130+ countries” from an OFFICIAL source, or just throw Random Numbers without even knowing which countries recognise them using their constitutional name?

    Readers are waiting from you to back up your claim with valid evidence.

    Reply
    • January 18, 2012 at 7:59 pm
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      Robert,there are 134 countries that recognized the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia.
      There are more than 170 countries Macedonia has some trade agreements.
      The 131st country to recognize Macedonia was Syria and the 133rd was Columbia,the 134th was a country in the Pacific Ocean,I apologize forget the name.If you are so interested on the countries who recognized Republic of Macedonia,you can get it from the UN official register.
      More than 2/3rd of the world countries have recognized Macedonias constitutional name.
      It is time for Greece to do the right thing,recognize Macedonia and Macedonian minority in Greece.
      You see,I am right on your historical knowledge.There was no revolution in 1921 againts the Ottoman Empire.The revolution started in 1825 by Kolokotroni who came from the Italian islands of the Adriatic sea.
      Why was Kolokotroni imprisoned in 1827 along with his cousin,and history was repeated in 1944 when Greece imprisoned a Greek hero Manolis Glezos for lowering the swastica at the Acropole.
      On the Slav-Macedonians;people that arrived in the geographic Macedonia have been intergrated with our ancient Macedonians.At least,we have similarity in our language with our ancient ancestors, unlike you who are of Albanian ancestors.Remember 1856-58 the decision on the language and name of this country.
      One more note;Alexanders Empire was not “Greek Empire”,it was the Macedonian Empire.It was the Macedonians who’s army consisted of 35,000 Macedonians and 7,000 Hellens who’s primery duties were to guard the food chain for Alexanders army.Remember,there were 50,000 Hellens fighting on the side of Darius againts the Macedonian army in Persia.Facts are facts.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 1:49 am
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    Ranting Nicholov is an ultra nationalist that manipulates human rights. Now that the former self-identiyfing ethnic Bulgarian living in ancient paonia has “discovered” they are related to ancient Macedonians…. why don’t you report facts like this dear Bill?

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

    “The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim”

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.” – US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 1:52 am
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    All I have to say is let the academic evidence speak for itself on this issue:

    Letter to President Barack Obama on the Macedonian Issue by world’s classical scholars –
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

    The University of Oxford’s Ashmolean Museum, presentation on Ancient Macedonia –
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIRe5tnqRKM

    Professor Melville-Jones, University of Western Australia –
    THE IMPORTANCE OF HISTORICAL TRUTH AND THE MACEDONIAN ISSUE
    http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/202063

    The slavs need to realise that they cannot build a national identity at the expense of historical truth. The REAL Macedonians (Northern Greeks) will never allow this.

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 1:53 am
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    FYROM natioanlist extremists don’t believe in democracy. If they did, they would stop oppressing evidence of their own BULGARIAN heritage and ethnically harassing Greeks for the sake of their nationalist “ancient Macedonia” propaganda.

    “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.”
    (Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”)

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 2:03 am
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    FYROM ultra nationalists are essentially fascists that manipulate human rights to push their state propaganda. Unfortunately Greece’s debacle with its govenrment finances has made some turn a blind eye to their extreme nationalism in the former Yugoslav republic but some NGOs like Amnesty international and SEEMO are now waking up to the oppression of free speech in FYROM. (which is necessary in perpetuity to keep up the lie of their “Macedonian” identity)

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/macedonian-government-must-stop-silencing-critical-media-2011-07-05

    Reply
    • January 18, 2012 at 3:10 pm
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      Anon,have you read the report on Human Rights in Greece by the UN representative Miss.MacDougal?
      Obviously,this report does not suit you.
      It does not suit you when you are exposed to the Greek historical fabrications.
      You are pseudo-Greeks,who have absolutly no connection to the ancient Athenians nor Spartans.
      Are you comparing the freedom of speach between Greece and Macedonia?
      Why the Greek government supported the bishop of Salonika to organize 50 buses to travel to Ovcharani(Melitis)to destroy the newly opened radio station in the Macedonian language?These same clergy are paid by the state from taxes collected from these people,yet the government did nothing to stop this ridicoulous event.
      Durring the Greek elections,the post office refused to deliver election material on behalf of the Macedonian Party.Is this what you call a democracy?Are you not ashamed of these and other Greek Human Rights violations againts the indigenouse Macedonians?
      The Macedonians did not come into your living room,the Greeks came to our living room and claim it is theirs.
      The Greek lies came in to the surface at the ICJ.Yet,the Greeks are trying to turn around the truth even that the whole world knows the truth.
      Greeces fabrication machine is losing much oil my friend,it spells the end of your lies,the wheell already started to squil,it will seaze.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 2:04 am
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    400 world famous historians from universities such as Oxford and Cambridge are tired of Fyroms and Bills( which has no shame and hides behind “human rights” names) propaganda, They write

    ” the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.”

    http://www.macedonia-evidence.org

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 11:04 am
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    This is propoganda, pure and simple. It’s sad that you believe your own lies. You are deluding only yourselves!

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 7:58 pm
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    @Peter

    MacDougal like that twit at Helsinki greece is just one person and frankly eithr has prejudices against Greeks or is plain incompetent. This is evidenced by the fact FYROM apologists now pretend they don’t notice FYROM’s sudden change into “ancient macedonians” and irredentism.

    FYROM ultra nationalists like Mr. Nicholov l manipulate the word “human rights’ to push his expansionary nationalist agenda.

    Identity is a human right. Not identity theft peter. Why do FYROM ultra nationalists, and its apologist, publically hide FYROM’s primarily ethnic BULGARIAN heritage and pretend to be related to ancient Macedonians if they aren’t going anything wrong?

    Reply
    • January 18, 2012 at 8:15 pm
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      Anon,Miss.MacDougal represented the UN,not Macedonia.There is nothing sinical about her report on Human Rights in Greece.
      Her rol was to findout the truth,and she did,wether you or anybody else likes it or not.
      The Greek police gave her and the Macedonians hard time in (Edessa)Voden and through out Aegean Macedonia.If the Greek government allowed the interviews freely,the report would have been even more daming for Greece.
      Anon,I was born in Aegean Macedonia,the Greek lies I am very familiar with,lived through them.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:08 pm
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    @Peter

    your ancestors didn’t used to self-identify as “Macedonians”. The majority of FYROMs’ ancestors self-identified as Bulgarians in the late 19th and early 20th century. Why do you fanatics insist on pretending to be related to ancient macedonian?

    Greeks are indigenous to Macedonia dear Peter. Even the name Macedonia is Greek. Rumelia as the region was called under the Ottomans was a reference to the Greek-speaking Romans they took it from not to your Bulgarian ancestors.

    I would also point out FYROM is not actually located in the original Macedonia. Its located in a region named Paeonia in antiquity. Fanatics in FYROM (and its anti-Hellenic apologists) intentionally confuse modern with ancient nomenclature.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mIRe5tnqRKM#t=5s

    I would also note ancient macedonians were self-identifying Greeks whether convenient or not to FYROM nationalists. Is Gruevski planning on competing at the next Olympics as a self-identifying Greek as ancient Macedonians did? Or is your expectation that ancient Macedonian artifacts will eventually rewrite themselves from Greek into the Bulgarian dialect Yugoslav communists modified and renamed macedonian?

    Reply
    • January 18, 2012 at 8:28 pm
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      Anon,read what Isocrates wrote to Philip.Read and understand Demosthenis epitaph in 338 bc.
      Read and understand what Ralis,Mitsotakis,Karakasidou,Grossomanidou,Dendramis have said about the Macedonians.
      Lets not diviate from the real history.
      Aegean Macedonia was given illigaly to Greece by the Big Powers of 1913,same with Serbia,Bulgaria and Albania.All these teritories are Macedonian who speak the same language,culture and identity as the Republic of Macedonia.
      The Greek Map of 1925 shows Aegean Macedonia,Epirus and Crete as the new teritories as of 1913,not as being Greek teritory.

      Reply
      • January 23, 2012 at 6:36 pm
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        That is so nuts – what history are you referencing and are you cherry picking a quote here and there – without regard to the entire background at hand? Nuts – totally nuts!

        Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:14 pm
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    Bill Nicholov obsessiveness with racial purity only shows what a racist he is. He lies and lies about FYROM’s history, demonizes Greeks, manipulates legimiate human rights, then wonders why Greeks don’t recognize FYROM.

    Hey Bill. I have no idea why you are so ashamed of your Bulgarian heritage. Instead of hiding from it you should be cherishing it. Instead of trying to take away the identity of Macedonians (i.e Greeks in THE Macedonia), you should be celebrating your Bulgarian heritage.

    Otherwise I would recommend a therapist to deal with your mental illness.

    Reply
    • January 19, 2012 at 2:53 pm
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      Anon,looks like you put the gear before you start the car.My dear fellow,have you realy checked your own ancestry?Let me tell you one thing for sure,over 45% of Greeces population is that of Albanian ancestry,ask Papulias.
      Not only Papulias but before him there were 27 out of 57 Prime Ministers of Albanian ancestry.
      If you realy know your history,go ahead and addmmitt it,I will tip my hat to you,and I will show some respect for your honesty.

      The Macedonians have been dealt raw deal throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.We had to answer to our occupiers,we even were told to change our Christian and family names by both the Greeks and Bulgarians.Our toponims were changed,villages,mountaines,rivers,you name it has been changed to sound Greek.The same occured in 1856-58 to the Albanians in Greece.
      Your claim of us being Bulgarians is an absurd lie.When I was in my village the “Pospasma”used to come on a weekly basis,they used to call us”Bulgars”because we spoke Macedonian.Are you trying to tell me,the Macedonians in occupied Aegean Macedonia,are they Bulgarians?
      I would love to hearing from you especialy my last question,if there are some balls left in you.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:21 pm
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    @Peter

    The agreement between the former Yugoslav region of Vardar and Greece also include clauses against trying to usurp our identity, hostile propaganda, and irredentism. When the ICJ ignored those clauses it lost moral credibility. No one has a moral right to ethnically erase Greeks by giving our very identity to the neighbouring state of ancient Kingdom of Paeonia.

    Article 3: Each Party undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the political independence of the other Party. Neither Party shall support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or the political independence of the other Party.

    Article 4: The Parties shall refrain, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, from the threat or use of force, including the threat or use of force designed to violate their existing frontier, and they agree that neither of them will assert or support claims to any part of the territory of the other Party or claims for a change of their existing frontier.

    Article 7

    1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

    2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

    3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

    Reply
    • January 18, 2012 at 8:43 pm
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      Anon,those Macedonians who agreed to change our flag and constitution had no balls to fight for the rights of the Macedonian people in 1995.The vice premier of Greece Pangalos said”It is nothing wrong to call Macedonia by its rightful constitutional name”.
      Samaras had other ideas,political ideas to be propelled to govern the Greek country during elections.Euphoria did sink in the minds of the Greek people.The LAOS party went as far as saying “kill all Macedonians”on Alpha TV.There are more than 1,500.000 million Macedonians in the Aegean teritory,even with the thousands who were expelled from their homes in 1924-28 durring the population exchange with Turkey and after the 1946-49 revolution.
      In 1948 alon there were 28,000 children refugee who are not allowed to return to their birth places because they refuse to accept greekness.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:29 pm
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    @Peter

    I find it hilarious how you deny our identity as Greeks while you lecture Greeks about the right to self-identification. Why so if you claim ancient Macedonians weren’t Greeks dear? Seems to me even you know ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

    Many qualified historians disagree with your sundry views about Greeks dear. Good luck finding an accredited historian that claims you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians are related to ancient macedonians. All you have going for your is politically motivated crackpots supporting you.

    Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Persians, Chinese and Japanese could be cited as examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, certain key identifying components—name, language, customs, religious community and territorial association—were broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia. – Anthony D. Smith British Professor Emeritus of Nationalism and Ethnicity LSE, Nationalism and Modernism, 2003, Cambridge University Press.

    “It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were a GREEK tribe and today’s so-called ‘macedonians’ of the ‘Former Yugoslav Republic of macedonia’ or FYROM, who are of SLAVIC origin and related to BULGARIANS.” – David H Levinson, ‘The Encyclopaedia of Ancient Cultures’

    “The Greek question has a longer history in Turkey. Greeks have lived in Anatolia for millennia, especially along the Aegean coast. For a while, under Alexander, they dominated the land. And for all intents and purposes, the Byzantine Empire (the Eastern Roman Empire at the time) was Greek. When Mehmct 11 conquered Constantinople, he appointed a Greek monk to the orthodox Patriarch and allowed him to govern both the religious and secular affairs of the Greek community. The first Ottoman census, of 1477, counted half of Constantinople’s population as Greek, and four-hundred years later, even after the Greek War of Independence, it was still 21 percent Greek.” – Lowenthal, David (1998). The heritage crusade and the spoils of history. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:31 pm
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    @Peter

    What do you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians have to do with ancient Macedonians that self-identified as Greeks? (and were recognized as Greeks by other Greeks during ancient Olympic sporting events)

    “Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. ” (Speech of Alexander I of Macedonia upon being admitted to the Greek-only Olympic games as a self-identifying Greek, Herodotus, Histories, 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm
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    @Peter

    Dear Peter the region in the 19th century belonged to the TURKS not some non-existent “Macedonian” state that only existed in the head of your Bulgarian ancestors. If you feel some injustice was done to the Turks that you forcibly took the land from, please feel free to give it back to them. Rename your capital city back its Turkish name of Uskub and become part of the Ottoman empire again if you like.

    “Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.”
    (Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”)

    Reply
    • January 19, 2012 at 1:47 am
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      Anon,Mario Alines,Dean Emeritus of the University of Utrecht,director of several linguistic reviews and progenitors of the Continuity Theory,states;”I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology namely,that of the arrival of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live.
      The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the slavic Western and Eastern branches…Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration of the Slavs”
      Recent genetic studies conducted by Oxford University reveal that todays ethnic Macedonians carry only 15.5% of the Slav gene,slightly above modern Greeks and Albanians and less than Serbs and Bulgarians!
      They furthere reveal that todays ethnic Macedonians have the highest amount of Mediterranean gene of European people!
      This was also confirmed by the University of Madrid studies.In a court of law,it is genetic proof that is conclusive,I might add!
      Here is a suggestion for the Greeks,how about DNA tests on the remains of the Royal Macedonian Tombs,uncovered and desecrated by”Greeks” in todays occupied Macedonia?
      Follow this up with genetic tests on modern Greek and Macedonian population…we will soon see the truth.
      Further,there is no pure Slav people…just like there is no pure”Greek”
      In summation…Ethnic,yes todays Ethnic Macedonians cannot possibly be of the old Mediterean substratum if they were slavs arriving in the Balkans in the 6th century AD…as the 19th century Western construct asserts.
      Todays ethnic Macedonians are authocthonous to Macedonia,it is very simple! Their language, unintelligable to the ancient Greeks,was a form of proto Macedonian/Slav,which then spread outward,becoming more complex as it moved further away from Macedonia.Countless proto Macedonian letters unearthed on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia,and no doubt in Pirin and Aegean Macedonia,though the respective occupiers have no doubt concealed them from the world because it does not fit…their lies,attest to this fact!”
      Anon,facts point in a different direction than the Greek thesis,don’t you think?.
      2500 years ago,there were Slavs in Peloponesus,they were called the Morea people that comes from a Macedonian word meaning”Morje”or in Greek”Thalassa”Morea people.
      The notion of slavs coming to the Balkans in the 6th century is a Greek myth.
      As for the Olympics,Philip was a King and a good polititian.Alexander the Great also played polititian.He became citizen of every teritory he won and wore their national wear to prove he was one of them.Did that meant he was not a Macedonian?No way!

      Reply
    • January 21, 2012 at 4:03 pm
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      Anon,the Ottoman Empire streched from Turkey to Egypt,Midle East and the Balkans,including the Roman Empire.The Macedonian Empire went furthere than the two.Does that mean,all occupied teritories belong to these conquerors?
      Since you claim Macedonia was under the Ottoman Empire,that makes Macedonia non-existant.Are you forgetting,City States were occupied by the same three empires?.
      Since you believe your own statement above,Greece never existed as I pointed out previously as of 338 bc up to 1830s.
      I guess,you put the gear on before the key on the ignition to start the car.This method does not work my friend.It shows how far a Greek would go to fabricate history,history that backfires on your face.Greeces motto;”As me lene Vojvodina,ke as pethano apo pina”.
      No wonder Greece is in that situation.

      Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:40 pm
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    @Peter

    You and your apologists seem to be having memory problems. Prior to widespread recognition what did your former government officials mean when they used to assure everyone….

    ‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’ – FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

    “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” – Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992

    ‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ – FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999

    “The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.” -former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
    http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 8:53 pm
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    @Peter

    Why don’t you mention “slight” details like this about Greece’s communist civil war?

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)
    http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    Are you claiming the US government involved in an attempted genocide against “ethnic Macedonians” Peter? Who do you think gave Greeks the weapons to expel IMRO communist terrorists promoting this exact “Macedonia” gibberish? Funny how your memory works. Its sad that your an apologists that fought for communist tyranny because you see things along racial purity lines rather than culture and justice.

    Reply
  • January 18, 2012 at 10:19 pm
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    I repeat again…The author of the article claims:

    “..more than 130 countries (including Canada, the United States, Russia, China, and over two thirds of all UN members, including four of five permanent UN Security Council members) have recognized the Republic of Macedonia.”

    Since the author makes an empty claim with absolutely no evidence of which are these alleged “130+ countries”, the obvious question is the following:

    Can you provide a complete List with the names of al these “130+ countries” from an O-F-F-I-C-I-A-L SOURCE??

    The Readers are expecting a list with the names of these “130+ countries” to back up your claim, unless you are lying and you are just throwing Random Numbers without having any clue which countries are these!!!

    Reply
  • January 19, 2012 at 12:31 am
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    The real “Macedonian” issue is that two nation-states have two entirely different definitions of what a Macedonian is. In the former Yugoslavia, it is considered to be an ethnic name. In Greece, it is defined as a Greek from geographical Macedonia, an area considered to be an intrinsic, inseparable part of ancient, medieval, and modern Greek history. Neither country will ever give legal recognition to the other country’s definition, and that will never change. But now on to the original post…..

    There so many points in Bill Nicholov’s “MHRMI response” I could argue with, but allow me to address a few:

    1. His claim of a large “indigenous Macedonian minority” in Greece holds no water. Another poster claims there are 1.5 million of these people, yet the political party in Greece which claims to represent them has consistently received putrid support. An alleged minority of 1.5 million (or even a few hundred thousand) should produce a large political movement, not 2-3,000 votes derived mostly from limited area of the villages around Florina in northwest Greek Macedonia, which is where Bill Nicholov’s family originates from unsurprisingly.

    It should also be stressed that this party only participates in Greek EU elections rather than national elections, where it no doubt would be marginalized even more.

    2. His claim that Macedonia was divided and annexed (I assume he means illegally) in 1913 is another fallacy. The Ottoman Empire controlled this and other areas of Europe until 1912-13, and the Ottomans never used Macedonia as an official place name. In addition, all current borders have been sanctioned and accepted by all relevant international bodies and countries for decades.

    3. If one takes his claim that Greece was created by the West at face value, then every other modern nation-state which came into existence in the 19th century under the approval of the great power system in place at the time must also be false creations. Where are Mr. Nicholov’s condemnations of countries such as Italy, Poland and Romania? Please Bill, use your great knowledge of history and politics to tell us why those and other countries are farces.

    4. His claim that Greece only used the name Macedonia since 1988 is so laughable that he reveals himself to be a joke. Greece has used Macedonia as a place name continually since 1912-13, and a perusual of any encyclopedia published prior to 1988 will confirm that fact.

    And in conclusion, it’s quite revealing that instead of fostering any kind of debate, Bill explicitly criticized the National Post for actually allowing a response to his op-ed. Why does Mr. Nicholov, from his cozy home in Canada, prefer to stifle debate? Why is he so afraid?

    For the record, I welcome Bill Nicholov to respond to my post with wide open arms.

    Reply
    • January 19, 2012 at 6:04 pm
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      This commentator who uses Chris Stefov’s name instead his own is a coward.
      I will not comment furthere to this because it is not worth it.

      Reply
      • January 19, 2012 at 10:27 pm
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        Actually Peter, that IS my name, although in a far different form than my birth certificate.

        And what does it matter? Bill Nicholov had to use his real name to get published in the National Post, but the rest of us are here anonymously so it doesn’t really matter.

        Stop being the true coward, show some intestinal fortitude, and confront my arguments head-on. Okay effendi?

        Reply
        • May 25, 2012 at 1:43 am
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          Effendi, hey. So you are Turkish? Right.

          Reply
    • May 25, 2012 at 2:04 am
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      The truths and facts are simple.

      Before 1912 – 1913 the geographical region of Makedonia was within the Ottoman Turkish Kingdom. It was a multy culty society of Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Vlahs, and other ethnicities, even Armenians.

      After the Balkan Wars, the geographical area of Makedonia that was previously the Ottoman Turkish Kingdom, was split up btween Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Albania. To form our nations that included our peoples that were freed from the Turkish Ottoman rule.

      So the northern borders of Greece in 1912 – 1913 were with Albania, Serbia and Bulgaria.

      Because Bulgaria was pissed off at not having Thessaloniki with in its gained territory, they decided to create a terrorist group called IMRO, to terrorise and kill the Greek population and to make false claims to Makedonia for the Macedonians.

      The Macedonians were free and happy to be within the Greek borders.

      So from this Bulgarian anger was born the problem we have today and the lies and propaganda that is spread from FYROM.

      It was Tito that gave them the chance to make claims as Macedonians because he saw a chance to make Yugoslavia bigger at the expense of Greece who was after WWII involved in a political civil war, and annex Makedonia from Greece. But it failed when the communist guerillas lost the war.

      In fact the southern part of Serbia in what is now the Former Yugoslav State is actually called Vadarska.

      Another fact is that the area around 50 km south from Skopje (Scupi) and 200 km north of Skopje (Scupi) was the ancient Roman province of MOESIA.

      Reply
  • January 20, 2012 at 8:14 pm
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    American anthropologist Loring Danforth has been a long time supporter of FYROM. He is even listed on Bill Nicholovs MHRMI website as a historial expert. Let me quote him because he cannot be accused of being a “greek nationalist propagandist” by Mr.Nicholov and fellow ultra nationalists like you (which is the norm to dismiss any objection a Greek might have)

    Here is what MHRMI’s OWN EXPERT has to say about your historical claims and new “ancient Macedonian” identity. (facts that manipulative Nicholov conveniently leaves out of his endless hate filled rants against Greeks)

    “The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim”

    “Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.”

    “The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.”

    – US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

    Reply
  • January 20, 2012 at 8:21 pm
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    IMRO collaboration with communists was why the American government said this in 1944.

    “The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.

    The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian Forces” against Greece.

    The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
    Department of State ”
    (U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

    http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    If such an ethnic group as “ethnic Macedonians” existed in 1944, then the US government was morally complit in an attempted genocide. Personally I don’ think so but if someone claims Greeks were involved in ethnic cleansing then it logically follows so were allied powers that were the ones that funded the expulsion of irredentist IMRO communist terrorists.

    Reply
  • January 24, 2012 at 9:31 pm
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    @Peter

    You are mistaken. IMRO’s very leadership Ivan Mihailov collaborated in the occupation of Macedonia Greece during WW2.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihailov#1934_-_1944

    Furthermore you keep going back to ancient history but gloss over the 2000 years inbetween. It is a historical fact the majority of people in what is today FYROM used to freely SELF-IDENTIFY as Bulgarians in the late 19th and early 20th century. It was only after Tito renamed Vardar Yugoslavia into “Macedonia” did widespread adoption of a purely “macedonian” identity exist. The issue was larglely put aside during the cold war (when you fanatics were part of the Communist block) but resurfaced when Yugoslavia disintegrated into civil war.

    You don’t have a historical leg to stand on. All you have is the prejudices of your anti-Hellenic supporters who now shamefully pretend to not notice your sudden change into ancient macedonians and united Macedonian irredentist rhetoric.

    “It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were a GREEK tribe and today’s so-called ‘macedonians’ of the ‘Former Yugoslav Republic of macedonia’ or FYROM, who are of SLAVIC origin and related to BULGARIANS.” –
    David H Levinson, ‘The Encyclopaedia of Ancient Cultures’

    “The Macedonian nationalists quite simply stole all of Bulgarian historical argument concerning Macedonia, substituting Macedonian for Bulgarian ethnic tags in the story. Thus Kuber formed a Macedonian tribal alliance in the late seventh century; Kliment and Naum were Macedonians and not Bulgarians; the medieval archbishop-patriarchate of Ohrid, which Kliment led, was a Macedonian, not a Bulgarian independent church, as shown by the persistence of Glagolitic letters in the region in the face of the Cyrillic that were spawned in Bulgaria; and the renowned Samuil led a great Macedonian, rather than a western Bulgarian, state against Byzantium (giving Slav Macedonia its apex in the historical sun).” – Dennis P. Hupchick, CONFLICT AND CHAOS IN EASTERN EUROPE, p 143

    “Prior to the creation of a Macedonian republic in 1944,most Macedonian immigrants viewed themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and often referred to themselves as Macedonian-Bulgarians or simply Bulgarians.While immigration records failed to list Macedonians as separate category,approximately three-quarters of those listed as Bulgarians were‍ from the regions of Kostur and Bitola in Macedonia.” – James R. Grossman (Vice President for Research and Education at the Newberry Library and senior lecturer in history at the University of Chicago

    Reply
  • January 24, 2012 at 9:37 pm
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    “IMRO was a Bulgarian organization.”

    I agree IMRO was a Bulgarian organization that was formed by your BULGARIAN national heroes like Delchev, Gruev and others who used the name “Macedonia” as a form of political trickery. The great powers at the time were philhellenic and easily saw through the ruse. Unfortunately some have selectively chosen to forget their long time support of Greece on this issue which further reveals prejudicial and political motives at work rather than principles.

    “This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece” – US State Department Dec, 1944 (Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram – 868.014/26)

    http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

    Reply
  • May 25, 2012 at 1:38 am
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    There is a solution to this nations problem.
    The land and area was since 6 AD known as Moesia.

    Moesia (Latin), Μοισία (Greek) was an ancient region and later Roman Province situated in the Balkans.

    Skopje was actually an ancient Roman settlement, first as a Roman Fort, which then developed into a city. It’s real name was Scupi.

    Macedonians are Dorians by race just like the Lakonians.

    The Skopjians can think they are Macedonians but they never will be the real Macedonians just like I am. A Greek from the province or state of Makedonia.

    And just to educate you a little bit, Skopje was founded by the Romans.

    And so it should belong to Italy is that not so. So your statues should be of Julius Ceasar and Nero.

    It is so sad that instead of spending your tax payers money of improving your schools and hospitals you spend it on silly lies to lie to yourselves that you are something you are not.

    We know what is the problem with our governement and the mess they have put us all in, but at least we are aware of the problem and we are going to deal with it.

    Alexander = Alex (helper) Ander (man) = helper of men (a Greek name and words).

    Pomochnikchovek = helper of man in the Slavic language, so your Skopjan Alexader the Great is Veliko Pomochnikchovek.

    Philipos = Phili (freind), ipos (horse) = freind of horses ( a Greek name and words).

    Prijatelkoin = friend of horses in the Slavic language, so your Skojan Philipos is Prijatelkoin.

    So i really see the similarity between the ancient Greek Macedonian language and the Slavic Skopjan language of today.

    Reply
  • December 5, 2015 at 7:53 am
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    Not being of Balkan heritage, I look at the facts and find that a genocide and ethnic cleansing of Macedonians surely occurred over during the last 150 years and that they were organized by successive Greek governments. There were a few honest Greeks during these years who agreed that Macedonians deserved their human rights, but they were a distinctly small number. The majority of Greek politicians have sadly been fascists. Turkey has committed similar genocides and ethnic cleansings of Anatolian Orthodox Christians (most of whom spoke Turkish as their mother tongue!) but who were counted by both countries as ‘Greek’.

    It’s time for Greeks to stop being the last fascist country in Europe.

    Reply
  • February 16, 2016 at 3:05 am
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    Jordan you are an absolute idiot. Firstly, Greece only liberated Macedonia, real Macedonia, that is, in 1912. Your timing therefore is a little out. This attaches itself to your credibility. Secondly, there were decidedly few Bulgarians to be found in liberated Greek Macedonia. Overwhelmingly, the population comprised of Greeks and then Turks. You Bulgarians were merely a rump element. Thirdly, the Thracian Greeks, the Smyrniot Greeks (and surrounds), the Pontic Greeks all spoke Greek. It is a fact that Greeks and Armenians spoke other languages spoke within the Empire. This may have had something to do with their roles in business, commerce and trade. You guys were then and still are village idiots. Idiot.

    Reply

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